Most Important Pre-Columbian American Civ?

[EMT]

What, in your opinion, was the most important civilization in the New World? I've posted the 3 biggies, and the 'Other' option. Feel free to defend or attack someone's opinion, but let's do it this way:

1. No baiting
2. No nationality-based insults
3. If you're posting to be rude, GTFO

Hopefully, as all these civilizations are extinct, no one will be nationalistic about it. Well, except me. Peruvian and all, you know. That's why I plan on only making an opening statement and leaving this thread alone for the most part.

My candidate: Teh Inca Empire

It was the biggest empire in Pre-Columbian America, it combined mostly peaceful assimilation, conquest, and economic and scientific growth, into an ever expanding empire. It was, at one point, going to be split in two, much like Rome. It was split, by civil war. Yet unlike Rome, Atahualpa reunited it fully, but the empire was in no condition to fight the Spanish, who won through a series of flukes, germs, and steel(I AM NOT being nationalistic about it, 30,000 Quechuan warriors lost against something like 20-50 Spaniards. Overwhelming numbers could have won the day, but the Inca was captured). Meanwhile, it's imprint was about to only begin, with the empire showing no sign of slowing down. The Inca Empire gave us jerky, llamas, and Peruvian food, specifically, Ceviche and Inca Cola. Oh, and the potato.

Discuss!

 

[Dale]

All three in their own rights, but I would also include the Ancient Pueblo (Anasazi).

 

[r_rolo1]

Olmecs would be cool, even if to have cabezas de negro artstyle in the game But awnsering the question, probably the Inca

P.S Vikings count for this ?

 

[EMT]

All three in their own rights, but I would also include the Ancient Pueblo (Anasazi).

They seem like the most advanced group in North America north of the Aztecs, but would they be considered part of MesoAmerica?

EDIT: Aren't Olmecs the ancestors of the Aztecs, just like Proto-Quechuans from the Kingdom of Cuzco are the predecessors to the Inca Empire?

 

[cybrxkhan]

From what I know, Olmecs are not directly related to the Aztecs. The Aztecs came from northern Mexico, and migrated southwards around c.1200-1300 CE. By then, the Olmecs were long dead.


I pick the Mayans, by the way.

 

[3 EMS]

Russia and China since thats where I think they came from.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, without wanting to give a lecture about pre-colombian mesoAmerican history...

cybrxkhan is 100% right in noticing that the Aztecs came from the north ( some even say they were relatives of the Anasazi ). Second the Olmec are far more ancient and were based in a diferent area ... in spite of a lot of the Olmec beliefs, artstyle and culture in general had spreaded to what would be the Aztec mainland, being absorved by them when they become the dominant power in there.

 

[Thormodr]

I voted for the Mayans but I think all three are very worthy and should be in the game.

The Mayans engineering feats were remarkable, especially considering they lived in quite inhospitable terrain. The same could be said of the Incas. The Aztecs prowess militarily as well as the architectural gem that was their capital are just as worthy.

I'd like to see the Iroquois in one of the expansions. It'd be nice to see a North American aboriginal culture.

 

[Herrhals]

These threads are awesome time-killing threads while we wait for more ciV updates.

I choose Inca because of their ability to adapt to such a rough, infertile space and thrive. Their Advancements in masonry, astronomy, mathematics, list goes on, is quite remarkable. The others were remarkable, but I think the situation the Incas were in and the adaptations they have made, make them influential, important and most noble of the three. As far as I know, their culture was not warrior based, nor did wars/human sacrifice dominate their society.

 

[cybrxkhan]

As far as I know, their culture was not warrior based, nor did wars/human sacrifice dominate their society.

Actually they carved out the largest pre-Columbian Empire in the Americas.

They had their wars.

 

[Herrhals]

but to the extent the aztecs and the mayans killed and slaughtered each other. Everyone's history is filled with wars and conflicts, it is inevitable. But was it to the extent of the M/A?

 

[Thormodr]

The Incas practiced human sacrifice as well. Good article here:

Just like the Aztecs, the Inca empire had only one century to flourish. The empire was built around the city capital of Cuzco. The Incas conquered and assimilated their neighboring populations so that, at the arrival of the Spaniards, their empire had about 12 million inhabitants, speaking 20 different languages
and belonging to over 100 distinct cultures. The Inca formed the largest empire in the pre-European South America, stretching from Ecuador to Chile (but their power center was in Peru), till they were conquered by Spaniards led by Francisco Pizarro around 1533.

During their expansionist politics, Incas were less violent than Aztecs. Local rulers kept their functions and ranks, but their sons were brought to Cuzco and grown up in the Inca spirit, religion and beliefs. When celebrating mythic events, dedicated to their gods, Inca used to make human sacrifices. Children were considered pure beings, so their sacrifice was a homage brought to the gods and a guaranty of eternal life of the spirits in the world of the divinities. The snowed peaks of the Andes not only controlled the weather but also animal fertility and crops.

In the '90s, archaeologists discovered at Mount Llullaillaco, a volcano located between Argentina and Chile at an altitude of 6,740 m (22,500 ft), tombs proving the practice of the ritual sacrifices.

The ancient Inca chose children as young as 6, but also as old as 15, "fattened them up" for a year and sent them on a sacrifice pilgrimage. The children had a hair cut first a year and then six months before their sacrifice. Sons and daughters of local rulers were selected for sacrifice, this way, the Incas spread fear into their governed populations. Some girls, around the age of four, were put under the custody of priestesses; some would later be given as wives to local nobles, others made priestesses and others sacrificed. The children's early diet was initially based on potatoes, but in the last year of life, they received corn, an elite food for the Inca, and animal protein, perhaps charki (dried llama meat).
3 to 4 months before death, the children started their pilgrimage to the heights of the Andes, probably from Cuzco, the imperial capital. Priests accompanied the children, and, during the journey ritual, dances and incantations were accomplished. Because of the tiredness, altitude sickness caused by low oxygen and administered drugs (like maize beer (chicha) and coca leaves), in the moment of the sacrifice children were semiconscious. Some children may have been left to succumb due to exposure to the cold. But others had a horrific death: scientists found vomit and diarrhea on their clothes, pointing to a violent death. The vomit contained the hallucinogenic drug achiote, also encountered in the stomach and feces. They were likely to have been asphyxiated, the body being crushed by their clothes, so strongly that the ribs and pelvis were sometimes broken. The bodies of the sacrificed children were mummified by the dry cold of the Andes, including hair and inner organs. In fact, Inca children represent one of the best naturally cold preserved mummies.

The clothes and the tunics of these children were drew and marked with mystic symbols and signs. Around the mummies statuettes, ceramics, baskets with food, coca bags were found, all being artistically adorned and all placed with a specific meaning.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Inca-Human-Sacrifices-79148.shtml

 

[Herrhals]

cool, I did not know that. I feel betrayed
Well, I guess the rest of my reasoning is sound, no?

 

[cybrxkhan]

Yeah, the Incas were pretty remarkable. They didn't develop writing (though technically they did have the quipu system...), and yet they managed to have a well-organized society and government. They also had the largest road system in the ancient/medieval world after the Romans (but the Romans didn't build across a whole crapload of mountains, did they?), and along with it an excellent message-relay system.

I still voted for the Mayans, but the Incans would be second for me.

 

[Thormodr]

cool, I did not know that. I feel betrayed
Well, I guess the rest of my reasoning is sound, no?

I think the Incas were cruel conquerors too. They were very efficient at it. A bit of terror usually convinced other villages to surrender without a fight. Still, to conquer an empire 2500 miles long in a short period of time was simply amazing.

From their road system to their remarkable agricultural system of terraces and other engineering feats, they were a remarkable culture.

I think the Inca's mountainous terrain was just as inhospitable as the Mayan jungles. They both adapted in their own ways.

I would give the edge to the Mayans as I believe they developed a writing system. Scholars are not sure if they maybe inherited it from the Olmecs though. They certainly got their system of calenders from the Olmecs.

Writing system
Main article: Maya script

The Maya writing system (often called hieroglyphs from a superficial resemblance to the Ancient Egyptian writing) was a combination of phonetic symbols and logograms. It is most often classified as a logographic or (more properly) a logosyllabic writing system, in which syllabic signs play a significant role. It is the only writing system of the Pre-Columbian New World which is known to completely represent the spoken language of its community. In total, the script has more than a thousand different glyphs, although a few are variations of the same sign or meaning, and many appear only rarely or are confined to particular localities. At any one time, no more than around 500 glyphs were in use, some 200 of which (including variations) had a phonetic or syllabic interpretation.

The earliest inscriptions in an identifiably-Maya script date back to 200–300 BC.[19] However, this is preceded by several other writing systems which had developed in Mesoamerica, most notably that of the Zapotecs, and (following the 2006 publication of research on the recently-discovered Cascajal Block), the Olmecs.[20] There is a pre-Maya writing known as "Epi-Olmec script" (post Olmec) which some researchers believe may represent a transitional script between Olmec and Maya writing, but the relationships between these remain unclear and the matter is unsettled. On January 5, 2006, National Geographic published the findings of Maya writings that could be as old as 400 BC, suggesting that the Maya writing system is nearly as old as the oldest Mesoamerican writing known at that time, Zapotec.[21] In the succeeding centuries the Maya developed their script into a form which was far more complete and complex than any other that has yet been found in the Americas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization

However, you could make a convincing argument for either I figure and hope we see the Incas, Mayans and Aztecs all in ciV.

 

[frekk]

They are all important in different ways.

Aztecs

Probably, their empire was going to be temporary one way or the other, and it was a very loose sort of "empire" to begin with. However, I think Texcoco - a member of the Aztec Triple Alliance - was very important. It's sometimes referred to as the "Athens of the West"; advanced philosophy, literature, and engineering were all practiced and nurtured there. Some of it is very profound:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/aztec/#SH2a

There's also the military aspect; by all accounts, the Aztec were extremely good strategists. They were particularly good at espionage, on account of the special merchant/spy guild known as the pochteca.

Mayans

The contributions of this group are numerous. Although in some ways they eventually lagged behind the Nahua (Aztecs and their neighbours and predecessors, ie Toltecs etc), they were at the forefront of developing maths, astronomy, and written language. The sheer number of large urban centres also testifies to their economic importance and social development.

Inca

I rate these ones the most important. Not so advanced in written language (they didn't have one) or philosophy, but they were definately the superior engineers. Unlike the Mayans and Aztecs, they also forged a powerful centralized state with an efficient bureaucracy and direct control of their territorial possessions, rather than just a loose network of vassals. Although cut short, their growth was extraordinarily rapid; Caesar on steroids. Finally, they were the most productive of the lot, with a massive textile industry. One can only imagine what would have happened once they adopted writing; it would be like setting flame to gasoline, I think.

 

[dagriggstar]

Mapuche anyone ?

 

[frekk]

Mapuche anyone ?

Well ... the Mapuche were terribly fierce and put up ferocious resistance to colonization, but not really all that important as a civilization. Mapuche architecture? Philosophy? Engineering? Higher maths? No, not really.

There are some other, lesser-known groups who might be rated as highly important though. The Mississipian/Hopewell cultures were probably the most important north of Mexico, not so much for their cities and monumental mounds, but because they made possible and sat at the centre of a vast trade network (the "Hopewell Interaction Sphere") which brought new technologies and ideas to practically the entire continent.

The Colombian groups (Chibcha, Tairona etc) are worth a mention too - they were the developers of advanced metallurgy, initially copper, gold, silver etc, and it's from them that the technologies diffused to Peru and Mesoamerica. By the late period they had developed bronze and it had diffused to Peru and parts of southern Central America. Had the history not been cut short, this is probably the single most important development other than the domestication of cereal crops.

 

[Calm_Blue_Ocean]

Perhaps it's just an oversight on your part, but why do you consider these "American Civs"?

 

[frekk]

Perhaps it's just an oversight on your part, but why do you consider these "American Civs"?

Maybe because they are all from North, Central, or South America??