MRG's Random Game of Randomness

[Spoonwood]

Well, the Korean war really starts to drain our capacity...

I checked back to the 1000 BC save. There were a bunch of barbarians to clear out OR the tax slider could have gotten set to positive and just let them run into a border city. But, it's also been a while since they've been gone. Mongolia knows Mathematics in 1000 BC (and probably earlier?).

Between 350 BC and 150 BC choxorn was the first player to put catapults. And only two (which is better than nothing!). This isn't the Mesopotomia scenario, as fun as that is, where catapults aren't available until somewhat late. I'm not an expert at Always War or early war games with infantry-type units only (and I tend to use a bit modified of AW rules also). But, I think remember LKendter saying that catapults early help a fair bit to minimize losses in AW games. In my Always War experiments I remember the 2nd or 3rd time when I started building catapults earlier rather than later, things seemed to go better. And when every offensive unit has maximum speed of one, combined arms always can keep up, unlike how a cavalry charge before artillery proper can easily outrun projectile weaponry.

Try to take Ch'ongfu. But probably that'll be possible only after retreating for now, fend off some more Korean units while minimizing own losses and refilling our ranks? If you failed with 12 archers, I should probably take 20?!

I haven't done the calculations, but no doubt that would project to a fair number of archer losses. Again, all three Korean border cities are on a hill. So, my suggestion is to wait until you have a stack of catapults or an archer army (protected by a spear or two) before even thinking about attacking Korean border towns.

Thing is though, Korea does have some desert (and a fair number of hills too), and I think they have the most territory on the map (check the power ranking and especially the score if you want to confirm/argue this). They already have Invention, and thus will soon have Gunpowder. So, I won't feel surprised if they get muskets soon.

The Great Library is still available, and everyone but the Byzantines have an extra luxury or resource for disconnect-reconnect strategies to get technology and/or gold. It also looks like Mongolia's trading reputation is still intact, since after paying for peace with Korea, I could pay them 1 gpt for 16 gold (and Henry would take 1 gpt for 7 gold).

Also, longbows cost the human player 40 shields. That's (.7 * 40) = 28 shields for a demigod AI. So, a human player building archers can build archers more quickly than a demigod AI building longbows. But, yea, you probably want some pikes, muskets, *or* a spear army to protect against longbows attack. But also, their defense value is 1, the same as an archer. So, I don't think them getting longbows is too concerning all things consider. Them marching muskets into your territory without enough firepower though, I would feel as concerning though.

Anyways, it's good to see this active and thanks for all the reading and saves people! Hopefully, I haven't been too harsh with my comments.

 

[Spoonwood]

Additionally on longbows: nope, they aren't much of a threat, with the right strategy (haven't tried it). Here's the key: you're expansionist!

My concern was that you might think about moving your stack forward and move an archer, which then ends up next to a longbow. But, if you put a scout into your stack, then you could move the scout first. If there's no longbow or other unit in the vicinity, then and only then does the stack move forward. Otherwise, the stack doesn't press foward.

Alright, such only works if there are no roads, and won't work when next to a town or city. But, still longbows advancing on you, or in undeveloped territory can pretty much get countered for a while.

Projectile weapons still would be useful, since archers can lose to longbows when attacking, or lose hitpoints.

 

[choxorn]

Edit: I felt surprised that such an archer stack failed against Ch'ongfu. I did a ctrl + shift + m after that, and saw it was on a hill. Also, all three Korean border towns are on hills.

I was aware of that. Even so, the fact that the Spearmen defending it started out as regular suggested to me I should be able to kill them with that many Archers, but it wasn't so.

 

[Lanzelot]

In my variant game, I lost like 5-6 archers each, taking first Chonju and then Ch'ongfu, so I was quite surprised about the high losses that choxorn suffered. Either I was extremely lucky, or choxorn extremely unlucky. But then, my attack happened some 10 turns earlier, so it could be that there was one defender less in those towns.

We may indeed need catapults here. But usually I play my military games without catapults, as they are too slow, and a horseman, who takes 1-2 hitpoints off the defender and then retreats, has the same effect as a catapult... (Only he needs to spend 2-3 turns healing, and then catch up with the advancing stack. But can quell some resistors during that time.)

 

[choxorn]

I'm pretty sure I was just unlucky, although it didn't help there were also three archers defending the city, and one of them popped up as the top defender after I got the currently elite spear down to 1hp.

 

[Lanzelot]

Another thing to discuss: After finishing Literature, I assume we trade it to Portugal for one of their techs and then research the other one?
Or we could wait a while, until we make peace with someone else, hope to trade Lit for both remaining techs, and then fire up research again, when our first Libs are online? But we might end up getting nothing for Lit, of we wait too long... Considering our good luck with "too late situations" in this game?! So I would vote to trade immediately for whatever Portugal has to offer, while Lit is still monopoly?

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Best thing to do would be use both cats and horses, except we don't have horses! So we need a ton of cats. Overprepare our fighting force with an outrageous number of troops and storm the cities on the hills.

Regarding Lit, yeah we need to trade it around very carefully to try and get caught up in the tech race.

We also need less people at war with us so we can trade things around. I would suggest the turn before literature is researched to try and sue for peace from everyone but Korea. Or even ask Korea for peace so that we can get a chance to build the fighting force we need to take them down.

 

[Lanzelot]

Spoiler :

Preflight: rearrange a few build projects and citizens. Nothing else to do.

T1, 130BC:
Retreat archers from Ch'ongfu to the hills. Koreans are folowing us -- they will run right into our catapult fire...
Thanks to the busted barb camp, I can now raise science to 60% and finish Lit in 1.

T2, 110BC:
Lit finishes. Portugal is willing to trade Lit + 20gpt for Poly & Curr. I take that deal, and we are in the middle age!
400g for two techs which would cost us almost 1000 beakers is a good bargain...

Shutting down research for a while, until our first libs are online.

Ta-Tu is now also making 10spt for 2-turn archers. Once we have taken the first Korean town, we can think about Libs there and in Kazan.

Portugal starts GLib.

T3, 90BC:
Portugal starts Knight's Templar.
Byzanz is ready for peace, only wants a few coins. As we are still getting WH from them, no thanks. (Perhaps they sign up Portugal against us, then we don't have to pay the full 400g...)

Kill 4 Korean archers. 4-0
Our scout finds Spain. They are up Monarchy, but down Lit, Rep and Cur.
Do we need Monarchy? The Hanging Gardens are already built in Constantinople.

T4, 70BC:
Korea starts Leonardo's workshop.
Egypt completes Sun Tzu.
Byzantium completes Knights Templar.
America starts Leonardo.

Our first Lib in Tabriz is finished.

We kill 3 Korean Longbows and a warrior, but will probably lose two of our archers in the interturn. But I simply couldn't let the LBs attack first. 8-0
The Americans arrive with 2 swords and 2 archers, more approaching in the distance. Ok, if we want to have a chance of capturing 1-2 Korean towns, we cannot afford to fight a steady stream of Korean and American units, especially as we are now up against LBs and swords. So I make peace for Lit, while they don't know it yet. If we can't make progress against Korea, we will never get out of our splendid isolation... Lux raised to 40%.

Sell Sumeria CoL for 45g.


T5, 50BC:
Korea starts Leonardo.
As expected, we lose 2 archers, but they are quite good on defence and take two with them. 10-2

We kill an archer and an LB, 12-2.

KK: settler -> lilbrary

T6, 30BC:
We lose an archer IBT, but not without a fight...! 13-3. And the LB who killed it, is now red-lined and exposed, so will fall to our counter attack.

Portugal wants 25g. Nope. They declare on us, and we get WH plus the remaining 16 turns of our 20gpt deal...!
Can reduce lux back to 30%.

Egypt wants peace for 80g.
Stopping now for team discussion. Should we take this deal? We are now in the middle ages, but I don't see any trade opportunities, until we have caught up a bit. So I don't see any reason yet to take that deal just yet. On the other hand, sooner or later we need to get out of the dog-pile, so this peace deal means one person less who signs up other people against us...
Atm we get WH from Byzantium and Portugal, and we want to do some damage to Korea (possibly squeeze a tech out of them). We are at peace with Spain, Sumeria and America. Would like to keep peace especially with Sumeria, as once in a while we can sell them an out-dated tech for some 40-50 gold...

Regarding "catching up": once we have 2-3 more libs and our cities are approaching size 10, we can probably self-research the early MI techs in 5-6 turns a piece, thanks to the big discount we get as we are the last ones to research them (except Sumeria...)

 

[choxorn]

My immediate inclination is not right now, we don't have much of anything to trade them, they haven't shown themselves to be a threat, and they have no money right now so probably can't actually dogpile anyone against us, but I could see an argument for peace with them.

Definitely loving Portugal demanding money from us and deciding to get us out of paying the rest of the money for Currency and Poly.

 

[MrRandomGuy]

Don't see the need to pay that much. Let the war with Egypt continue.

 

[Lanzelot]

T6, 30BC, cont.:
Kill an LB, 14-3

T7, 10BC:


T8, 10AD:
Spain starts GLib.
Kill another LB, 15-3

T9, 30AD:
LB and archer, 17-3

T10, 50AD:


Handover notes:

• There are 3 LBs and 2 warriors visible on the front. Once they come closer and can be killed, our stack should be ready to advance. It has 21 archers now.
• The settler E of the volcano can settler where it is. I want those 2 grassland tiles for Darhan, that gives Ta-Tu more tiles to grow beyond 8.
  Irrigate the BG, then Ta-Tu can get the other irrigated grassland and use a mountain.
  
• Darhan needs to produce 1 worker over the next 3 turns, and then it can operate as a simple 2-turner at size 6.
• The settler in the S is on its way to the hill.
• Our core is pretty crowded, we need to clean up the polluted tiles now, the western cities need to switch to coastal tiles soon, giving their grass to KK.
  The lib in Bashireet will probably need to be rushed, once it is no longer too expensive, so we get those 4 tiles for Choybalsan and Darhan(Ta-Tu).
  Finally the tiles N of Almarikh need improvement (irrigate at least the BG), so that Almarikh can give tiles to Kazan.
• Choybalsan still needs a bit of delicate footwork, before it can operate as a smooth 2-turner...
  
• Mandalgovi needs an irrigated BG and 2-3 deserts, then it can be pushed to size 11 and finish the FP reasonably quickly.
• Once the Lib in KK is finished, we can think about firing up our research again. KK can then support the unit production, while Ta-Tu and Kazan get their lib?!

 

[choxorn]

@tjs282 You there? Your turnset is up.

 

[tjs282]

Hi folks. Yeah, haven't been on CFC much over the past couple of weeks, and then mostly on my mini-tablet (=phone) which I find terrible for posting — I can't even drop Likes reliably.

Well done to all for salvaging my error(s). I'm happy to have the opportunity to make some more now... I'll DL the save this evening and try and post a preflight as well. I'm guessing I'll still be doing a far bit of tile-adjustment in our core, to speed those towns' growth to as close to Pop12 as possible...?

 

[tjs282]

OK, now I gottit.

Core towns:

Seems like these are now settled into their assigned groove, so I'll carry on with that, i.e.
-- Barracks-towns build mostly Archers, but should also fit in a Lib if 1st-ring (priority: Kazan, TT, then Alma)
-- Non-Barracks towns to build Cats and Workers (if not at Pop7 yet)
-- Gran-towns (Darhan, Choybalsan) to act as Worker-pumps

Proposals for next projects

For the towns that will (likely) finish their current buildings during my set:

KK: Lib (3T) --> Barracks
Already at Pop7, and being our capital, presumably we want it to get bigger than that, so I/we should no longer be building Settlers there. Plus, if we want Libs in all(?) our core-towns, and KK should take up some slack on building mil-units, then they ought to be Vets, n'est-ce pas?

Mandal: Temple (2T) --> FP
A no-brainer. With our new outlying 1-shield towns (also) mostly building Workers, should I also be adding a Worker into Mandal as each new tile-to-work gets fully improved? This would give us faster growth to Pop11, and an earlier finish to the FP-build, but I/we will need to keep replacing those Workers as well

Ulan: Lib (11T, but growth in 4T could speed that up) --> Duct
Definitely 'core' (distance 4.5 from KK), so growth to Pop7+ is high-priority for lots of reasons, but shield-scarcity means we should start this early enough that it won't cost us a limb or two to cash-rush when it's 2T from Pop7

Baruun: Catapult (2T at +2FPT, but could be MM'd to 1T at 0FPT) --> Barracks
Only distance 5.5 from KK, so doesn't urgently need a Court, will grow to Pop7 without a Duct, and we want more (Vet) mil-units anyway

Daland: Court (5T) --> Lib
Distance 7 from KK (i.e. comfortably 2nd-ring) so once the Court is done, could convert a lot of water-commerce into beakers. Already has a Harbour, but we don't really need boats right now. Also at Pop8, so Gran (then Settlers) seems a poor option at this point, despite food-richness -- but we currently don't have any town on Settler-builds... Could maybe also spit out Workers as needed to manage happiness.

Ereen: Harbour (5T) --> Court?
Distance 9.5 from KK, so not sure this is really worthwhile -- but a Lib makes even less sense before we have a Court, and because it's currently so corrupt, a Duct doesn't seem like a high priority either. Simply slow-building Workers out of it might rather be the best option...

Special cases:

Erdenet: Duct in 96T(!), but Pop 6 in 4T, and potentially Pop7 in 9T:
Like Dal, this is a 2nd-ringer with lots of water-commerce potential, but will be shield-poor until its Hills are mined -- so this Duct will likely need to be cash-rushed. Should I save up for this, or rather spend our gold on...

Batshi: Lib (70T...)
@Lanzelot: (When) should I rush the Lib here? Doing so right now would cost 240g, but 2T at 1 SPT and 7T at 2 SPT (after growth to Pop2) isn't going to make a huge dent in that...

Hovd: Worker (1T) --> Settler
For (eventual) town-abandonment...

War-plans:

Kill the nearby Korean units and then advance on Chongfu; also take Chonju if feasible, then demand whatever we can get from Wang for peace -- preferably before he buys in Abe, Bella or Gil against us (he has a huge stash right now). Getting him to concede Chinje would be great (but unlikely), so I'd be happy if we could get Engineering (nice for bridges over our rivers) and/or Monotheism (needed for Chiv, i.e. Keshiks) and/or a large pile of gold.

Conversely, make peace with Byz (WHappies), Egypt (no WHappies) or Portugal (WHappies) only if they offer us a really good deal -- or if a massive SoD arrives on our doorstep, which can't be dealt with before we lose a town(s).

 

[Spoonwood]

I only see one library completed so far.

You guys are behind in technology. I'm not so sure about how good it is to build libraries in this sort of situation, since you can't learn anything first and then sell it, even if you weren't at war. I think about it this way. If you research technology yourself, you build both a market and library usually or at least eventually. If you don't research technology yourself, you just build a market. So, there's 80 shields saved if we don't start calculating for banks or stock exchanges. Oh, universities are 200 shields, while banks are 160 shields. Markets and banks thus cost less than libraries and universities, and if you're going to have 3 or more luxuries, you'll want a market, library, and university. And markets and banks get better if you add stock exchanges in too, or you stop having some sort of need to get more technology. Markets and libraries have the same upkeep cost, but banks only have an upkeep of 1, while universities cost 2.

Spain has extra horses and iron! Oh dang, they're on the other side of the pangea. They do lack Republic right now. But, you have no possibility of a trade network via Korea for a bit. Though, Naissus of the Byzantines does have a harbor, and you guys have three harbors too. Hard to say whether you could trade right now without paying just a little bit for peace with Korea.

I look at Erdenet and think it really can use a worker before even thinking about putting in an aqueduct. I'd rather a town put out a few workers than wait around dozens of turns unable to grow and complete an aqueduct.

It's only 30% science before there's negative gpt. That's with 30% taxes. A library thus would only give you 30-40% benefit for a while. On the other hand a market will give you 70% benefit if research is at 0. Foregoing libraries seems to make even more sense to me considering that, even without luxuries.

I took a look at the espionage screen. It's 950 gold for an immediate steal with America, 1425 gold for a careful steal, and 1900 for a safe steal. Those numbers depend on the tech level of the civ you (would) try to steal from. If you ran 0% science, you could attempt a careful steal with America in a while, but I checked and you could purchase Engineering from them right now, for 52 gpt and 152 gold, which at a rate of 18 gold for 52 gpt is less expansive than a careful steal, since it totals up to 1088 gold. Monotheism is a bit less expensive.

Temple in Mandalgovi... Oh, I see, you need a temple for cities to get to size 7 at 30% luxuries like Karakorum's temple, since you're at war with Korea and thus have no possibility of acquiring any luxuries from anyone. Oof.

I read back and see that the war with Korea started by Lanzelot defiantly refusing a demand from Theodora for 24 gold, and then the Byzantines signing a military alliance with Korea. 24 gold! I have to wonder how much benefit there would have been in acquiring luxuries up to this point, or having horses to build horseman that might get upgraded later, or have iron so it more likely doesn't get traded to someone else. I think it's more than 24 gold.

Oh, you guys got war happiness from the declaration by Theodora. But, that war happiness, if I recall correctly is one citizen becoming happier, correct? So, it's basically equivalent to one luxury gained.

Korea doesn't have any harbors that I see. They have 2519 gold, and thus probably could purchase horses and iron from Spain if they had a trade network with them. That doesn't mean that you could trade with Spain though...

 

[tjs282]

Ooh, meant to ask one more question @Lanzelot.

A Worker has apparently just arrived on one of Darhan's Forests. Is he just supposed to road it (6T) and move on, or should that tile be fully improved, i.e. chopped, roaded and mined/irrigated (4T + 3T + 4–6T)? If the latter, are the shields intended to go into a building, or just another Worker?

 

[Lanzelot]

@tjs282: Your proposals look good. Answering the remaining questions:

Worker joins: we still have a bit of a worker shortage, but yes, whenever it is feasible (meaning enough improved tiles available) a worker join here or there will be alright.
And once our two worker pumps are running smoothly, worker joins will be the primary means to get the first ring up to size. KK does not yet have that many tiles available and grows quite quickly on its own with the cow and the gran, but long-term even here a worker join might be useful at some point.

Daland could perhaps indeed spit out another worker, if happiness becomes a problem, and then, with a hill and a mountain improved, it will have decent shield capacity to produce the lib quickly.

Ereen: yes, a few workers or even a settler for the southern tundra (to ease unit upkeep). None of court, duct or lib makes a lot of sense there at this time. (Maybe later, when it's bigger and the FP is finished?!)

As long as Hovd is not in anybody's way, it can keep producing a few more workers, before we abandon/relocate it?!

The worker at Darhan should just road the forest and then help improving the two new grass tiles E of Darhan. That'll give Ta-Tu 3 more good tiles to work: the roaded river forest, one irrigated BG (Darhan can switch to the new BG in the E, when finished) and the mountain. After that, it can help clean up & improve the polluted tile.
The 10 shields are not really useful at the moment, as long as Darhan operates as a worker-pump. Can be saved for later, when Darhan stops producing workers and gets another building.

Spoonwood's tip on spitting out workers slowly in those towns that don't have the shield capacity for an aqueduct, looks good. Perhaps we could use that for Erdenet? Because we certainly won't have the cash for rushing both, lib in Batsh and the duct in Erdenet, at least for some time...

I am also not sure, how long we can wait, before rushing that lib. Perhaps not within the next 5 or 10 turns, but sooner or later we need those 4 tiles, otherwise our core cannot grow.
For a while, Choy can take a BG from Ta-Tu, while Ta-Tu switches to the forest. That should be enough to get 2-turn workers from Choy. But mid-term, Choy needs one of these tiles, and if Darhan can use the other two, Ta-Tu can grow bigger as well. And getting the fish & whale for Batsh is quite useful as well. I would say, once the price drops below 200 and you feel we don't need the cash otherwise, do it! And better do it a bit too early, than too late. We also need to wait 3 turns, before the expansion sets in.

@Spoonwood: as we have no luxes and no prospect of getting any anytime soon, I thought that libs would do us better than markets at the moment. Even if we will be able to trade for a lux eventually, it will be expensive and it always runs the risk that another DoW or another MA of one of the enemies will cut the trade route again... Situation is too unstable at the moment to hope for trades. And I really don't see us getting 3 luxes anytime soon. (Which is, when markets start to become useful.)

The purpose of the libs is not, to catch up in tech, but rather to speed up a bit those few techs we need now. (E.g. Chivalry, if we have hopes of capturing the Byz horses mid-term, or Invention for Longbows otherwise.)

But in any case, the first phase, on which we need to concentrate now 100% is getting 2-3 cities and a tech via pointy stick from Korea. Then we can re-evaluate the situation and make further plans.

BTW: I'm not sure whether the market I started in Tabriz, is a good idea. I just started it for lack of better ideas. Perhaps we could switch to barracks now (they will then finish interturn, when Tabriz picks up a hill!), followed by more archers? The Korean war will by no means be easy for quite some time, I'm afraid.

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: don't know, whether it is obvious, but after growth to 7 next turn, Tabriz can take 2 hills and get to 10spt, while growing slowly via worker joins. So barracks and 2-trun archers may be a valid option here. Market can always be done later, when we really need it.

On the other hand, if we go for a Longbow-mass-upgrade strategy, we will need lot's of cash, so a market at some point may also be useful?!
LB-mass-upgrade will work in any case, while the Keshik option may be a bit of a long shot, as it depends on getting and holding the Byzantine horses, for which we may not yet have the power to reliably achieve that?

 

[Spoonwood]

as we have no luxes and no prospect of getting any anytime soon

Did you consider the possibility of making peace? Without making any in game decisions, you can dial up Korea, and some other civs, and see if they have extra luxuries without making peace. You almost have a road to their border, and if you recall, you can make roads in your friends territory, especially if you have a right of passage.

You could also check to see if you could get any luxuries by making the in game decision by making peace with everyone. It won't suffice to make peace with some civs, again, everyone is needed because of the harbor trade network possibility being blocked by someone you are at war with. I won't reveal anything here though.

But in any case, the first phase, on which we need to concentrate now 100% is getting 2-3 cities and a tech via pointy stick from Korea.

If I understand correctly, this gets less and less viable the higher level due to the AIs having a larger army, and also the cost of tech goes up. Also, if you don't deliberately only pick cities that aren't near your borders, you can get them in rather awkward spots. They also come with unhappiness due to the recent cruel oppression.

Chivalry is irrelevant if still at war with Korea before Navigation or Magnetism. If you were at peace with Byzantium and Egypt you still couldn't trade with either of them solely to the fact that Korea borders on the coast block the potential trade network between your capital and your harbor, and their harbor and their capital. I consequently don't see how you could trade between your capital and a captured Byzantine city also, if at war with Korea. Theodora has horses and iron, and has had Feudalism for a while, correct? I would guess she probably has pikes if not possibly muskets also? Longbows are cheaper than knights... edit.. should have said keshiks... anyways. Invention thus appears to have significantly more value than Chivalry for this map, since you all seem to want to remain at war with Korea.

Still only 2 artillery type units. Korea might have muskets soon. Heck, they could have them already. They have cash. They can research or purchase technology.

Catapults or trebuchets, of course, come as nicest when they don't have to move to the front for several turns. So, they make the most sense in cities near Korea.

 

[Spoonwood]

don't know, whether it is obvious, but after growth to 7 next turn, Tabriz can take 2 hills and get to 10spt, while growing slowly via worker joins. So barracks and 2-trun archers may be a valid option here. Market can always be done later, when we really need it.

My strategy is generally to put out artillery type units before building barracks if I feel that I don't need attack/defense units immediately. That way I can get some out fairly quickly and early, and not pay upkeep on barracks until the city is just building units. I'd suggest it better that it put out a few catapults before switching to barracks and then archers, and hopefully soon enough longbows.

On the other hand, if we go for a Longbow-mass-upgrade strategy, we will need lot's of cash, so a market at some point may also be useful?!

Yes, but you're at war and apparently everyone wants to remain at war. When at war, when there is any doubt between infrastructure and units, it's probably better to put out units. It's 100 shields for a market vs. 4 catapults and 1 archer. Of course, there's a balance though, since you can choke on unit support of have happiness issues or not have enough commerce.

I also count 5 elite archers. I don't see any reason to upgrade any of them, unless they become elite stars after spawning an army.

Would you guys prefer an archer army or a spearman army (which won't get attacked by 4 attack units if healthy enough?)?

as it depends on getting and holding the Byzantine horse

You also would need a trade route to your capital from the captured harbor city. But, if I understand correctly, and admittedly I haven't checked exactly, you won't have the possibility of such a trade network if at war with Korea without having Magnetism or Navigation.