Osmowstroyer
Warlord
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- Aug 10, 2012
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So, no wmd's in TUG? Why? It just adds more spice to the game (except for Thorvald).
Multipolarity II - Game Thread
- Thread starter Tani Coyote
- Start date
Thorvald of Lym
A Little Sketchy
My problem with sneak attacks is that they're a byproduct of a faulty mechanic that was never patched. I'm not sure when it started (it wasn't present in IOT6 and I don't think IOT7 either), but it's never been properly addressed in your games. Putting aside the fact that every attempt I've heard to rationalize codification plain doesn't make sense at the strategic scale, it's also, simply, mechanically unfair.
You seem to be the only GM who'd rather an error be exploited than fixed.
You seem to be the only GM who'd rather an error be exploited than fixed.
Remember, though, that I gave them consequence. Most games have done an absolutely deplorable job of handling the holistics of atomic warfare, which has trivialized their use, and explains why in today's games they've become Plan A, rather than the sort of last-resort dilemma deterrent they should be.It gets even more ironic when you consider that Thorvald, the very person who laments the current state of IOT, was the one who introduced WMD.
christos200
Never tell me the odds
I don't see why we should have them, other than as a deterrent to suprise attacks. (There's an idea: Use nukes to defend yourself. Wow.)
I did this in MP1 when India sneaked attacked me.
Thorvald of Lym
A Little Sketchy
So, the next segment I'd conceived before Tani confirmed the game had died. Originally it was a 'cap-and-comment on the world situation, then I started tying it in a little more closely to the epilogue preliminaries... I don't know what happened... Maybe it was this recent talk about nukes?..
Somehow it became this.
The wooden boards creaked as Junjie hobbled out onto his porch late that afternoon. He collapsed into his rickety chair, gazing out across the land before his cottage. The foothills cast long shadows, and the horizon was beginning to glow. It was a good setting for contemplation. His schoolbooks told him that centuries ago, summer in this region was quite lovely, the valley lush from warm rains, echoing with the symphony of a diverse ménagerie of critters. Now the dry winds blew through badlands, and most of the animals were long extinct, the surviving species desperately clinging to what remained of the ecosystem. More than once he’d tried to imagine such a scene, but the picture was as elusive to his generation as Pangaea, hundreds of years of atomic fallout having long ago erased any trace of the old world from living memory. And yet, no matter how bizarre the dichotomy remained to his 31st-Century sensibilities, it kept nagging in the back of his mind, as though history meant to tell him that this future was fundamentally wrong.
But what can I do? he would retort. It was impossible to live in the Union and not be political, even for people who hadn’t directly served the state as he had; he knew all about the government’s grand plans, the national dream, and how it had all unravelled in the last cycle. That any state should have lasted as long as theirs in so pure a form was miraculous; but ever since Tippett’s Coup and the international degeneration that followed, some began to question whether their longevity was the worse fate, that China was doomed to watch the fruits of its struggle putrefy again and again, Prometheus chained to the rock, tortured by a thousand little deaths.
He folded out the newspaper he had brought with him. The situation in Europe grew worse every day. Blazing across the front page was news of the firebombings in Partitionania, a full-width photograph taken from the field. The crisis had finally reached a tipping point: the targeting of civilians had erased any lingering doubts internationally, and condemnation of Russia was now nigh-universal, with a fourth round of embargo talks poised to sanction the entire Diamond Coalition. The European sponsors, meanwhile, blasting Soviet expansion into western Europe as an attempt to seal off the continent, rejected Moscow’s threat and officially banded together as the United Allied Forces. Continental escalation now looked inevitable. The world watched with baited breath.
Junjie dropped the paper down beside him. It wasn’t too far north of here that a nuclear strike had taken place almost a millennium ago. The land still hadn’t healed, not completely. Lacuna was a lie: sure, fallout scrubbers could mitigate the damage at a rate once believed scientifically impossible, but by then, the critical damage was already done. As-of-yet, true restoration remained out of reach; the land could only be made “good enough” for resettlement, human resettlement, sustained only by a steady stream of resources to keep those impractical outposts from starving to death. Lacuna boasted that its technologies had turned what would otherwise have been a flesh-eating disease into Gaia’s common cold, but the truth was, the planet was dying, slowly and imperceptibly. Atmospheric radiation was reaching concentrations that threatened a global pandemic amongst the world’s poor, where medical coverage and ecological engineering were insufficient to mask the rotting foundations. The International Climatological Commission was in constant war with Lacuna over its statistics, charging that the company’s ever-sunny reports were based on immediate recovery, not the long-term consequences. It was treating the symptom and ignoring the cause.
What did all this mean for Jinjie? The same as it meant for everyone else ignored in the global power-plays of the last and current cycle: extinction. The planet was racing toward catastrophe, and no-one was applying the brakes. People thought that after four great upheavals, the human race was invincible; scientists were screaming that they were barrelling headlong into complete ecological collapse, and this time there would be no rebound. No-one knew exactly how, or when, but unless the international community took ownership, and fast, it would sail over the metaphorical waterfall. Nuclear war at the present juncture might very well seal that fate. Nuclear war seemed Russia’s intention.
He reached into his breast pocket and withdrew a lapel pin. It was a black circle with a red design. His grandfather had given it to him when he was an adolescent; it was something of a family heirloom, a lucky charm handed down through generations. He knew, of course, what it was, and what it symbolized, but for the first time in his life, he felt he finally understood what it meant. What can I do? That had been his retreat, his excuse, to throw his hands up and say it wasn’t any of his business. But it was his business! It had been his business in the Schism, he’d fought hard enough then; where was that resolve now? He looked down at his prosthetic leg; state-of-the-art when he’d received it; with the battery long dead it was little more than an expensive crutch, but he still stubbornly swung it along, still asserted himself, still tried. In that moment, all his trepidation melted away, and the young man returned. He’d answered the call once before, and he still had strength to do so again. It’s why they had become legend, after all. They never gave up.
The pin was slightly bent and it took some effort to pull it open. He affixed it to his shirt collar, gathered up the paper, and after three tries hoisted himself onto his feet. He hobbled back inside and to the phone; he didn’t actually know what he hoped to do, all he knew was he had to do it.
China had always dreamed of a better future.
The time had come to make it so.
Somehow it became this.
The wooden boards creaked as Junjie hobbled out onto his porch late that afternoon. He collapsed into his rickety chair, gazing out across the land before his cottage. The foothills cast long shadows, and the horizon was beginning to glow. It was a good setting for contemplation. His schoolbooks told him that centuries ago, summer in this region was quite lovely, the valley lush from warm rains, echoing with the symphony of a diverse ménagerie of critters. Now the dry winds blew through badlands, and most of the animals were long extinct, the surviving species desperately clinging to what remained of the ecosystem. More than once he’d tried to imagine such a scene, but the picture was as elusive to his generation as Pangaea, hundreds of years of atomic fallout having long ago erased any trace of the old world from living memory. And yet, no matter how bizarre the dichotomy remained to his 31st-Century sensibilities, it kept nagging in the back of his mind, as though history meant to tell him that this future was fundamentally wrong.
But what can I do? he would retort. It was impossible to live in the Union and not be political, even for people who hadn’t directly served the state as he had; he knew all about the government’s grand plans, the national dream, and how it had all unravelled in the last cycle. That any state should have lasted as long as theirs in so pure a form was miraculous; but ever since Tippett’s Coup and the international degeneration that followed, some began to question whether their longevity was the worse fate, that China was doomed to watch the fruits of its struggle putrefy again and again, Prometheus chained to the rock, tortured by a thousand little deaths.
He folded out the newspaper he had brought with him. The situation in Europe grew worse every day. Blazing across the front page was news of the firebombings in Partitionania, a full-width photograph taken from the field. The crisis had finally reached a tipping point: the targeting of civilians had erased any lingering doubts internationally, and condemnation of Russia was now nigh-universal, with a fourth round of embargo talks poised to sanction the entire Diamond Coalition. The European sponsors, meanwhile, blasting Soviet expansion into western Europe as an attempt to seal off the continent, rejected Moscow’s threat and officially banded together as the United Allied Forces. Continental escalation now looked inevitable. The world watched with baited breath.
Junjie dropped the paper down beside him. It wasn’t too far north of here that a nuclear strike had taken place almost a millennium ago. The land still hadn’t healed, not completely. Lacuna was a lie: sure, fallout scrubbers could mitigate the damage at a rate once believed scientifically impossible, but by then, the critical damage was already done. As-of-yet, true restoration remained out of reach; the land could only be made “good enough” for resettlement, human resettlement, sustained only by a steady stream of resources to keep those impractical outposts from starving to death. Lacuna boasted that its technologies had turned what would otherwise have been a flesh-eating disease into Gaia’s common cold, but the truth was, the planet was dying, slowly and imperceptibly. Atmospheric radiation was reaching concentrations that threatened a global pandemic amongst the world’s poor, where medical coverage and ecological engineering were insufficient to mask the rotting foundations. The International Climatological Commission was in constant war with Lacuna over its statistics, charging that the company’s ever-sunny reports were based on immediate recovery, not the long-term consequences. It was treating the symptom and ignoring the cause.
What did all this mean for Jinjie? The same as it meant for everyone else ignored in the global power-plays of the last and current cycle: extinction. The planet was racing toward catastrophe, and no-one was applying the brakes. People thought that after four great upheavals, the human race was invincible; scientists were screaming that they were barrelling headlong into complete ecological collapse, and this time there would be no rebound. No-one knew exactly how, or when, but unless the international community took ownership, and fast, it would sail over the metaphorical waterfall. Nuclear war at the present juncture might very well seal that fate. Nuclear war seemed Russia’s intention.
He reached into his breast pocket and withdrew a lapel pin. It was a black circle with a red design. His grandfather had given it to him when he was an adolescent; it was something of a family heirloom, a lucky charm handed down through generations. He knew, of course, what it was, and what it symbolized, but for the first time in his life, he felt he finally understood what it meant. What can I do? That had been his retreat, his excuse, to throw his hands up and say it wasn’t any of his business. But it was his business! It had been his business in the Schism, he’d fought hard enough then; where was that resolve now? He looked down at his prosthetic leg; state-of-the-art when he’d received it; with the battery long dead it was little more than an expensive crutch, but he still stubbornly swung it along, still asserted himself, still tried. In that moment, all his trepidation melted away, and the young man returned. He’d answered the call once before, and he still had strength to do so again. It’s why they had become legend, after all. They never gave up.
The pin was slightly bent and it took some effort to pull it open. He affixed it to his shirt collar, gathered up the paper, and after three tries hoisted himself onto his feet. He hobbled back inside and to the phone; he didn’t actually know what he hoped to do, all he knew was he had to do it.
China had always dreamed of a better future.
The time had come to make it so.
Last edited:
Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 15,195
I like paranoia. Sneak attacks help to stoke paranoia.
Modern radar technology would detect an attack, and as such, I will probably include an op to disable it. Only through a Yuri-scale infiltration will one be able to launch Operation: Red Dawn.
If WMD were included in the next one, NPCs would probably embargo on the basis of it.
HOWEVER. To avoid the whole WMD/air wing issues I had with this game, I will probably set the next MP in another technological paradigm. Industrial probably.
Retcon non-European inequity out of the equation, and the hard power gives way to soft power.
Retcon doesn't make sense, yes. Do I care?
No not really. It's a game, don't think too much on it.
Definitely alternate timeline either way. If 800+ years later tensions are still high (despite records having been destroyed en masse), it's obvious that alternate universes are a must.
Modern radar technology would detect an attack, and as such, I will probably include an op to disable it. Only through a Yuri-scale infiltration will one be able to launch Operation: Red Dawn.
If WMD were included in the next one, NPCs would probably embargo on the basis of it.
HOWEVER. To avoid the whole WMD/air wing issues I had with this game, I will probably set the next MP in another technological paradigm. Industrial probably.
Retcon non-European inequity out of the equation, and the hard power gives way to soft power.
Retcon doesn't make sense, yes. Do I care?
No not really. It's a game, don't think too much on it.
Definitely alternate timeline either way. If 800+ years later tensions are still high (despite records having been destroyed en masse), it's obvious that alternate universes are a must.
Patriotic_Fool
The Mitt ©
Of course Russia is the one that caused nuclear holocaust.
What about Romes plans to nuke me? I didn't even have nukes, yet somehow I killed 'erbodah? >.>
Hatin' on the USSR.
And whatever alternative timeline there is, Stalin shall make a comeback.
What about Romes plans to nuke me? I didn't even have nukes, yet somehow I killed 'erbodah? >.>
Hatin' on the USSR.
And whatever alternative timeline there is, Stalin shall make a comeback.
Patriotic_Fool
The Mitt ©
RS, the next time you begin to type on your keyboard, stop for a moment and think whether what you are about to say is utter stupidity.
Unfortunately, you might have to stop posting on this forum altogether for that to happen
I like paranoia. Sneak attacks help to stoke paranoia.
Modern radar technology would detect an attack, and as such, I will probably include an op to disable it. Only through a Yuri-scale infiltration will one be able to launch Operation: Red Dawn.
If WMD were included in the next one, NPCs would probably embargo on the basis of it.
HOWEVER. To avoid the whole WMD/air wing issues I had with this game, I will probably set the next MP in another technological paradigm. Industrial probably.
Retcon non-European inequity out of the equation, and the hard power gives way to soft power.
Retcon doesn't make sense, yes. Do I care?
No not really. It's a game, don't think too much on it.
Definitely alternate timeline either way. If 800+ years later tensions are still high (despite records having been destroyed en masse), it's obvious that alternate universes are a must.
And what better way to induce paranoia than to have a 25-75% chance that the sneak attack will be revealed to the defender two-three days before orders lock?
RS, the next time you begin to type on your keyboard, stop for a moment and think whether what you are about to say is utter stupidity.
Unfortunately, you might have to stop posting on this forum altogether for that to happen
Show me where someone said Russia caused a nuclear holocaust. I was not saying anything about Rome.
Patriotic_Fool
The Mitt ©
Here R_S.
Except Russia has pretty much stated it will nuke people several times, and being in-character without knowing your nation stats the UoC has no way of knowing you are lying about having nukes. That is an accurate statement. What confused me was your usage of 'caused', which implied that nuclear warfare happened in that post, something I did not see.
hoplitejoe
Top fun-poster
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This thread depresses me, y'all need to chill and take this less seriously.
- Joined
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- 14,928
No it doesn't. No it hasn't. No it never will. WMDs ultimately railroads all the players into a single path and, because unlike actual history, everyone starts off equal, everyone has equal access to nuclear weapons. Hence, everything that made the Cold War interesting, namely a few great powers with some nuclear weapons, are lost.
Patriotic_Fool
The Mitt ©
As a Communist, I must say that I do not oppose everyone having WMD access, and everyone starting out even.
If we started, say, in the hype of the cold war, a few nations would have massive influence, and thus more power and more fun, while smaller nations would be sidelined and have nowhere to go
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I don't have a problem with it either. It just doesn't lend itself toward a Cold War format.
If we started, say, in the hype of the cold war, a few nations would have massive influence, and thus more power and more fun, while smaller nations would be sidelined and have nowhere to go
Not always true. Valkyrie was a 1923 start and has players playing countries ranging from the US to Ethiopia and a Chinese warlord. Mosher played Venezuela (still hate you, you filthy communist bastard <3)
Mosher
Mushroom dad
Tani Coyote
Son of Huehuecoyotl
- Joined
- May 28, 2007
- Messages
- 15,195
I've debated having players start off unequally (i.e. first come, first serve in terms of power ranking), but I don't think that'd appeal.
If there was some sort of sneak attack leak, it'd be to let the attacked player reposition their forces. The tip of course, is to keep a sizeable military regardless of if you're going to be at war or peace.
That and I need stiff war penalties. MP is not supposed to be a war game, and every time someone finds a way to make it one, I'm just going to ramp up the penalties for such. I do not care if you are a war player, or like to gobble up land, that has never been what my goal was.
If there was some sort of sneak attack leak, it'd be to let the attacked player reposition their forces. The tip of course, is to keep a sizeable military regardless of if you're going to be at war or peace.
That and I need stiff war penalties. MP is not supposed to be a war game, and every time someone finds a way to make it one, I'm just going to ramp up the penalties for such. I do not care if you are a war player, or like to gobble up land, that has never been what my goal was.
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