My capital is an ok commerce city, my 2nd city is awesome, should I move my capital?

[DrCron]

I normally don't like moving my capital unless the original one really sucks. Wasting hammers on a Palace for something that won't give me any benefits until I swap to Bureaucracy feels like an annoyance. But take a look at this 2nd city (this is Deity, btw):



That's just ridiculous. Double gold and 7 floodplains. I'm pretty sure that's the best commerce city I've ever had in a game. Paris is fairly decent though, with 1 fp and 4 river grassland tiles. And if I settle where the white dots are, I guess I'll pay a bit more maintenance in the early game with Orleans as the capital. So... Should I build a palace in Orleans? And if I do, when?

 

[Major Tom]

Well, at least it will counter Russian (especially if Creative Cathy) borderpops and increase visibilty towards them and help protect goldmines long term. Not sure though if those hammers could be spent better on something more useful short term. Depends on your gameplan until bureaucracy, but would probably switch at that point.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Personally, I would say that the new location isn't necessarily all that much better. Flood Plains take a long time to grow on and the same is true when you have Gold Mines that need working. If you had another City that could take over the Gold Mines for the short term, it might be worthwhile, but there's so much Desert to the south of the Gold Mines that I don't think that it's going to be a strong play for you.

Better would be to tech your way to a military advantage--probably Horse Archers, then steal an AI's capital, which is probably going to be an even better location.

But, if you insist on moving your capital, then allow a bunch of Barbs to spawn. If enough of them spawn that they rush your Civ, you can let them capture Paris and your capital should get moved to one of your other Cities; I believe that the highest population City will get your new Palace, but there may be other factors that determine where your Palace ends up. Just be sure to have enough Units to be able to retake Paris immediately. And, don't cry if the Barbs raze Paris (it's unlikely to happen, but it could happen). I believe that a City with a World Wonder in it or a Holy City will not get raised by an AI, but I'm not sure whether the Barbs feel the same way.

There aren't enough Hammers and Forests in Orleans to both build a Palace and Chop out Oxford, so if you aren't going to let the Barbs capture (and possibly raze) Paris, then just take an AI capital and move your Palace there via Chopping.

Also, build 2 or 3 Flood Plains Farms before building Cottages at Orleans. You'll thank me later when the City has the potential to actually grow large enough to be able to work enough Cottaged Flood Plains squares.

 

[sampsa]

Agreed with Dhoomstriker. Maybe you can think about it again later, post-liberalism or so when the cost of moving palace is comparatively low and you have a better view on how and when you are going to win the game.

 

[Fippy]

Some strange replies here..yep that's a clear case of putting some hammers into Palace when possible, and nopes you are not letting barbs spawn and take Paris on deity just for fun

 

[sampsa]

Well letting barbs capture it is a risky trick, but needs to be investigated imo. For fun? For profit, if you can really transfer palace at the cost of 1 pop. To be clear I wasn't recommending that trick, just saying that I wouldn't put much emphasis on moving palace at least pre-bureau.

 

[Anysense]

Dhoomstriker must be joking. I disagree with everything except that a few farms can help Orleans to grow at some point. But you can make a helper city work one gold mine for a while with the same effect.
Seven floodplains and two golds make huge difference. Palace costs just 160 hammers and it pays back quickly with bureaucracy. Besides, it does not matter how slowly you build a palace, i.e. you don't need chops.

 

[Fippy]

I wrote just for fun to make clear for how strange i thought you guys are in this thread lol (agree with Anysense).

We are talking about 160h - 50% discount = 120.
And some replies would suggest we are talking about building space parts

Palace hammers never decay (or not earlier than 50 turns..so never ~~), and it's really nps putting some in here and there for Bur.

Paris good production city that should better be built for mines (besides growing ~2 cottages for Orleans).

 

[sampsa]

Now the replies got really strange. We don't know anything about the game yet and people are insisting on moving the palace. There is absolutely no rush to make such decisions and Orleans needs at least granary+library before you need to think about it.

Palace costs just 160 hammers and it pays back quickly with bureaucracy. Besides, it does not matter how slowly you build a palace, i.e. you don't need chops.

Pays back as in creates more than current capital, sure, but doesn't pay back in . How doesn't in matter how slowly you build it? When you are putting into a palace, you can't put into anything else, thus the infra in the new capital will be lagging behind. I know that this was obvious to you, just saying it out loud.

We are talking about 160h - 50% discount = 120.

That is a good point, I missed that we are ind. Anyway, what I'd like to do is to at least use the bureau bonus first in current capital (better whips!) so there is no rush in putting into a new palace at the point of the game when there is so much good stuff to build.

 

[Fippy]

Well i think what me and Anysense mean is stuff like "Orleans not being a better Bur Cap", that's just bad advice.
Slow growth with 7 floodplains and that nice wheat tile?

Thinking about barb openings for 120h buildings on deity, with no copper or horsies yet connected?
Looks out of touch with playing normal deity games.

Outside Orleans, land does not look so great.
It's clearly the highlight, and DrCron asking about Palace move shows he quickly understood that.
But some replies suggested that's not a good idea, which i find just weird.
I would immediately think about that too when playing this map.

Do you build other useful stuff first? Sure, he's not getting CS in 20 turns.
And Palace needs 4 cities anyways.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, maybe the discussion got to the wrong track. Orleans is clearly a better bureau cap and thinking about moving the palace is the correct thing to do. And that's what the OP was asking.

I don't think Dhoomstriker was suggesting letting a barb archer take Paris now and trying to remove that archer on a hill with a bunch of warriors.

 

[Snowbird]

I think more accurate way is saying that Paris sucks as a capitol (with or without bureau).

I am roader for life, but why that Parisa-Orleans highway was made? Cities would autoconnect trhough river

 

[DrCron]

it will counter Russian (especially if Creative Cathy) borderpops

Russia's leader is Peter, so that's not so pressing right now.

Do you build other useful stuff first? Sure, he's not getting CS in 20 turns

Orleans is clearly a better bureau cap and thinking about moving the palace is the correct thing to do

Ok, got it. I'll get the basic stuff in Orleans and will plan the build of the Palace when Bureau is closer.

why that Parisa-Orleans highway was made?

I saw the spot in the first few turns, and also saw that Russia was very close (that Russian border was already there when I first moved my warrior to that spot, it's probably their 2nd city), I didn't want to lose the spot to Russia so I helped the settler get there faster. Also, the only other thing my worker could do after the corn farm and the mine was farming the fp NE of Paris, which I knew wouldn't last for so long since I was going for pottery early.


Thanks everyone for the answers.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, I definitely like Orleans as bureau cap..classic example of one. I recommend, once you can start building a Palace there, just putting bits of OF hammers into it over time. There's no urgency, but assuming your either Louie or DG, then those OF hammers will add up pretty quick, so just put a turn into it here or there and finish it circa CS. Nice thing too is that Paris and later Deer/Sheep can help work some cottages.

 

[pigswill]

Palace isn't available as a build option until you have four cities so the decision is slightly premature. Maybe play the game further then decide on your priorities.

 

[dutchfire]

There aren't enough Hammers and Forests in Orleans to both build a Palace and Chop out Oxford, so if you aren't going to let the Barbs capture (and possibly raze) Paris, then just take an AI capital and move your Palace there via Chopping.

How popular is Oxford nowadays? Most of my games barely feature a university in the capital, let alone Oxford.

 

[DrCron]

How popular is Oxford nowadays? Most of my games barely feature a university in the capital, let alone Oxford.

Same here. On standard speed I never build it.

 

[Fippy]

Perfect example of hammer counting and stuff, out of touch with reality if you are not building palace in O.
Not much more to say here ~~
Oxford does not even matter for this question.

Strong opinion yup i know, but for good reason imo
Anybody who wonders about that question should get a very clear answer.

I consider this forum part as dwelling for game experience sharing & good advice, and yup there's only 1 answer here.

 

[Bibor]

I would've put Orleans 1 south, as well as the planned city above it. That way all the flood plains would've been used sooner.
As for moving the capital, I guess it really depends what you want to accomplish. Paris is fine for a hammer capital. You're already boxed in, because land is crap. If you plan on "aggressive expansion" to the East, eventually moving the capital to Orleans would make sense from maintenance perspective as well. If you plan to stay small/boxed in, makes sense to keep Paris as capital as you'll need the hammers.

 

[Fippy]

Nope does not depend on what you want, especially when staying small or boxed in Bur Caps are super important.

Those are deity basics, commerce and research are what matters most.
Hammers after CS can easily be gained by slavery or in other ways.

You must work on moving your palace towards Orleans for good deity gameplay here, there's no other solution..no theory crafting, everything else is hugely inferior. When you are putting hammers into O Palace, yup that can be reasoned with.