My first Shadow Game (Immortal)

[pigswill]

Could maybe consider fishing between BW and wheel: WB gets a second food for capital (with early commerce); a second WB can explore more safely than a warrior; finding out if the island to the north has a resource which makes it worth settling is useful information.

 

[krikav]

I think I would want both fish and hunt before TW.
Nice to get that early commerce going.
Good points about fishing from @pigswill , but I think I would just rush out a workboat to the clams without spending turns scouting the island though, can check that island out with the fish workboat later on.

The riverside camp is nice commerce with FIN. Also, hunting unlocks resourcesless holkans which would be very comfortable if no BFC copper shows up.

Very difficult to assess timings, but if this delays TW alot, settlement to share capitals corn might be the better option as it's insta-connected.
It also gets a food resource from T0 (Although stolen from capital), and can be settled one turn faster, and has a tad less upkeep due to closer proximity to capital.

So much for the worker(s) to do, so beelining pottery wouldn't really enable much cottaging anyway.

 

[pigswill]

It occurred to me that the combined yield of elephant camp and improved clams is about the same as farmed dry corn and PH goldmine (?5f.3h,6c). Is there an argument for going hunting and fishing before BW?

Also worth considering that the other part of pottery is (half price) granary. Workers are also cheaper with expansive so a second worker to chop and cottage may be worth considering sooner rather than later.

 

[krikav]

I think that postponing BW in favour of hunt/fish is to put too much emphasis on commerce. Commerce is good, but early on production is more important.
Could probably run into troubles with lack of useful work for the worker if BW is delayed too.

 

[zahoo]

If I see it correctly it will take the worker 5 turns (T11-15) to improve the farm then another 7 (3+4) turns to reach and improve the mine. I agree that, while taking the same time, the mine is a more of a long-term investment (if there is a resource on that hill it will stay forever). This means the worker can start chopping after 13 turns (1 extra for moving into any of the forested tiles) when BW is likely to be completed because of city growth and the ivory tile commerce "joining in" the research.

The following questions will be what to chop and (not independently) what to research. I tend towards Fishing and chopping a work boat for the clams then get Hunting and improve the ivory.. From my experience food takes priority over anything especially this early on, but correct me if I'm mistaken. A slight issue can occur if fishing is not finished by the time the chop can finish. In this situation I could to one of the following:

1. Make the chop into a worker
2. Leave the forest pre-chopped and start chopping another one
   
3. Simply wait until the tech is researched

The drawback of #1 is the halted city growth and #2-3 is the waste of worker turns via movement or being idle, which should be avoided at almost all costs imo. However, sometimes I find myself in this situation no matter what I do. Probably the answer is that it is situational but how do you usually handle this decision?

 

[krikav]

T15 the corn will be farmed.
T22 the grassland mine will be mined.
T23 the worker moves into a forest.
BW should be done T24. (Says 14 turns on T10, should say 0 on T24).
So chop T24, T25 and on T26 the chop could land.

Regarding fishing or hunting first, you are right that food takes priority. If we could choose to say, farm a agriculture resource or camp the ivory, then the farming takes priority.
The problem with the clams is the initial 30H investment. It could be that we are not ready to make that investment at that time in the game.
Food or hammers are completely neutral for a window of time once the start of the opening is done and the capital has reached pop3-5 something. At that time capital almost only slow-builds settlers/workers.
So in that periord, camp or clams are completely equal.
This is also why even horrid tiles like plains hill mines can be quite decent in the very early game.

I think that me personally would probably prefer to land the first chop into a worker. Then I would check how many turns it would take to slow-build, and make a call if I want to finish it slowly, or instead continue to grow and later finish the worker with a second chop.
Once I had two workers I would chop out workboat/settler and/or camp the ivory.
To early to tell, too cumbersome to plan ahead that far.

 

[krikav]

The drawback of #2-3 is the waste of worker turns via movement or being idle, which should be avoided at almost all costs imo.
However, sometimes I find myself in this situation no matter what I do. Probably the answer is that it is situational but how do you usually handle this decision?

You are completely right.
Well... you could phrase it "Unecessery waste of worker turns via movement or being idle should be avoided whenever possible."

But yeah, the answer is annoyingly enough that it depends.
We set up all these rules of thumbs and guidelines to help our intuition along, but constantly the map generator throws at us curveballs.
This is part what keeps the game interesting after all these years, no?

 

[zahoo]

You are completely right.
But yeah, the answer is annoyingly enough that it depends.
We set up all these rules of thumbs and guidelines to help our intuition along, but constantly the map generator throws at us curveballs.
This is part what keeps the game interesting after all these years, no?

Totally agree. I think what keeps me in this game after more than a decade is that there is ALWAYS a new situation. Surely we see patterns coming up for which we have our (good or bad) methods that we tend to play, but there is rarely a game without improvising. Btw, I'm an engineer in real life and have always worked in vehicle maintenance/service, and the type of thinking to solve my tasks in work and Civ resemble quite a lot

I will continue playing in the afternoon, until the chopping.

 

[zahoo]

Played until finishing the mine and moved the worker into the NW grassland forest ready to chop. Looks like we have 1 idle turn but that is acceptable and I don't think it could have been prevented.

Built a warrior in the capital working the ivory until the corn was improved, then working the corn to grow, finally working both while building another guy, who just finished before growing to size 3. Started another worker, sweet 5 turn build.

Moved around the second warrior to check the south-eastern coast (nothing interesting) then simultaneously ventured a bit upwards and took a good forested hill position with the original one leaving no unbusted tile. The third guy will check the west coast for seafood then he will probably sit in the capital (no unit maintenance just yet and he will soon be needed anyway).

I think city placements are obvious now, second city has to go where it does, else we will kill the cow for a long time (I don't think settling on the other side of the bay is a soon viable option). Third city should be settled only when the capital culture has reached the fish.

Spoiler Map overview :

Spoiler Capital :

Now research can go 2 ways:

• Hunting (improve ivory) -> Fishing (work clam, maybe chop WB)
• Fishing (work clam) -> Hunting (improve ivory)

I tend towards the 1st version, as it gives enough to do for the workers short-term. Worker shop should probably go to the worker (will leave big overflow) then chop a settler with both workers.

 

[krikav]

I would have worked the unimproved corn all the way, working ivory to get warriors out faster is something I would have done if the barb situation wouldn't have been as chill as it is now AND if we didn't have a city center hammer.
Here in this incredibly sheltered position and the city center hammer gives enough warriors fast enough, so faster growth would probably have been prefered.
I'm not sure I would have stagnated on pop3 either, maybe I would just continued to grow is the way, only putting the worker in queue when chops land.

But this gets the worker faster and settler faster too, so could be the best way.
Did you get a overflow hammer from finishing some warrior? If not situation would be annoying.
A chop from the worker gives 25 hammers, and city is yielding 12 toward worker now (7 base hammers is abit annoying with exp).
So chop and two turns would be 12+12+25 = 59, one hammer short of finishing the guy.
There is food in the bar, so it's concievable that the turn you finished the last warrior, you could have worked the forested PH (3H) instead of the ivory (1F2H1C), getting that overflow hammer needed to finish the worker in two turns aided by a chop.

I see that you have barracks in the queue, so it's possible that you finished the warrior, and then had 1-2 turns left to grow to pop3.
What you could have done instead is to save the warrior in the queue, put one turn into barracks (or better yet SH for some future failgold), and then the same turn the city is about to grow, only then you finish the warrior to get that overflow hammer into the worker.
Am I explaining this somewhat understandable? Or is it just ramblings?


Also, I don't understand, why would there be idle turns? BW in one turn and worker can chop next turn? Or has the worker not moved already...?
The first tile I would chop is the tile SE of capital, why? Because it would have the highest odds of regrowth with 4 forest adjacent.
But going for and clearing riverside grassland is a good choice too, the worker is also in a nice spot to go mine copper in all possible tiles from where he stands now, if copper shows up there.

 

[krikav]

I loaded the game and played to T23 to illustrate the points I try to make, and how I see things.

Spoiler T23 comparisson :

Working the corn right away is the sensible way to go imho. Only in games where you have open fields in every direction and you have no city center hammer trading food for hammers for abit faster warriors and more barb safety early on makes sense. (NC271 comes to mind)

Rached pop2 with the warrior at 14/15. I think 2 warriors is enough for now, prefer to get some failgold from SH.
Food bar is at 5/24 and there is no way to get to pop3 faster than in 3 turns. I want to finish the warrior the last turn with the forested PH so I know I'll get 4 food that turn, so working the ivory for 3 turns first works out nicely.

Last turn, switch to warrior and switch tiles.

Like this:

Next turn, I'll get a tiny headstart towar that worker.

Working these tiles instead of the ivory trades a coin for a hammer. Good deal imho.

Your T23 and my T23 side by side:

Beakers toward BW is the same, 188.
I have 12 hammers into SH for failgold, have the worker at 29/60 and have one warrior less. I also lack the 1F in the bar that you have.

You have a worker at 12/60 and the barracks at 8/50.

Add my stuff up and you get 12+29= 41.
Add your stuff up and you get 12+15+12+8= 36

The diff in 41 vs 36 probably comes from faster growth in my playthrough.

 

[civac]

Sometimes it's useful to put hammers into a second worker on size 1 and only start growing once the food source is improved. Similarly on size 2 until the second food source is improved (if there is one and it gets done quickly after the first). I suppose it's not that common.

 

[zahoo]

@krikav
This is the analysis I came here for, thank you. Understood everything. This is what I basically don't do, play with 1 hammers here and there - a 5 turn second worker was just good enough for me not to bother. Probably that's why I struggle with immortal level...

Replayed those turns you played for educational purposes following the food and production bar each turn. I simply have the habit to build at least 2 extra warriors, but I think I agree that in this situation it is not necessary just yet. I still opted to chop the forested grassland for clearing the commerce tile, be in position for possible copper and I also considered that this forest can only be used for this city now or the near future (if the sheep is ever settled it will be the 4th city the earliest).

Spoiler :

T23

Edit: no copper for us now

Now the 2 decisions are:

• What to tech?
• Which tiles to work?

I think the 2 options for the tiles are given below. Right now I opt for the first option as we would get the tech in 6 turns both ways, but the first option overally will give more overflow after the worker is done. I plan to land the chop into a settler. Maybe even a second chop, together with the second worker.

Fishing was chosen as a placeholder for now. With fishing we would gain a 2F3C tile to work right away and a work boat could be chopped really fast with 2 workers (next chop would be 1E from the forested PH). But maybe that chop could go elsewhere and the workboat can just be slow-built later.

Hunting would let us improve the ivory which will add +1H and +2C (lovely fin) to the tile.

Spoiler Worked tiles - alternatives :

Since barbarians start spawning on T15 on immortal I took the "risk" with the original guy and checked the SE coast of the peninsula (whenever I replay some parts I pretend that I need to get some info I know already). Then, while keeping no tiles unbusted I moved him up to head to the forested GH. The panther (I marked where it turned up) is heavily wounded and he just have busted his area and Willy's scout have just left to the north so I think nothing else can be there to threaten the warrior on the open field for this turn.

Spoiler Warrior moves :

 

[pigswill]

I'm no immortal player but I would wonder about chopping riverside plains before ordinary grassland, with a cottage its 1f1h3c compared to 2f1c. Depends on how quickly you start cottaging (and food from other tiles).

 

[zahoo]

I'm no immortal player but I would wonder about chopping riverside plains before ordinary grassland, with a cottage its 1f1h3c compared to 2f1c. Depends on how quickly you start cottaging (and food from other tiles).

The grassland the worker is standing on is next to a river (has fresh water access).

 

[pigswill]

Oops, sorry, Misread your post, riverside grassland is better than riverside plain.

 

[krikav]

Maybe @pigswill wondered more general about riverside plains vs non-river grassland when financial? My personal answer to that is that if you got the food to support it, then riverside plains is the way to go.

 

[zahoo]

What do you think about the tech path? Fishing or Hunting first? I tend towards Hunting, because the ivory does not require any chops to be used now (I would definitely chop the WB). Or skip maybe both and go for TW -> Pottery right away? This would also need worker turns investment into cottages which I am not that sure we can afford yet.

 

[krikav]

What do you think about the tech path? Fishing or Hunting first? I tend towards Hunting, because the ivory does not require any chops to be used now (I would definitely chop the WB). Or skip maybe both and go for TW -> Pottery right away? This would also need worker turns investment into cottages which I am not that sure we can afford yet.

Sorry, got in a rush and couldn't answer those considerations earlier.


I was starting to think about second city, and the spot that you have chosen, (and third city too), none of those will be connected by coast so it's either sailing or TW thats needed for the connection.
Now, that connection is only 2c per turn, so teching fishing and just working the unimproved clam is equal or abit better.
But there is something to be said for settling to share capitals corn and still reach the new corn with a monument. It screws up the cow abit, but maybe AH will be ages away anyway? And perhaps it can be reached across the strait without troubles?

Hunting and fishing both gives you something useful to put hammers into, fishing allows you to put hammers slowly into workboat(s). While hunting allows you to start putting hammers into a holkan or two.
Bot these are passive benefits that are kind of neat.
Less of a problem with Pacal as he starts with myst, and SH is still available to put failgold hammers into though.

There is an opportunity cost with camping the ivory too, that worker won't be chopping, and in this full chopping period a worker turn is worth more or less 5 hammers (at least thats the rule of thumb I use).
So the camp cost you 20 hammers, while the workboat cost you 30. The workboat is still more expensive... but I mention it just to point out that a camp doesn't come totally free.

I think I would go for fishing first, but mainly to get that 2F3C tile. I would probably still put hammers into a workboat, but chops would be reserved for settlers/workers primarily.

so a vote for fish->hunt->TW. But I can't present any strong arguments for this path rather than hunt->fish->TW.



I think you are right in that going straight for TW/Pot is abit premature... Workers will be busy chopping abit.
Don't forget the pottery discount that going for fishing forst gives too.

 

[zahoo]

Took the Hunting route and I think I will settle next to the dry corn (the currently dotted one, one further away from the capital) to claim a bit more land. This is because we are in a closed peninsula, which is advantageous in one way (easy to fogbust), but we can easily get boxed in, even if currently we have only met one AI.

Northern warrior killed the panther and took a good defensive spot. The only "surprise" can come from the tile 1W of the banana, but it can be seen in time and handled accordingly.

Spoiler T23-T31 :

Finished the second worker in the capital as well as landed the chop into the settler. Second worker instantly goes to chop 1SE.

First worker joins in puts one turn into the second chop so it is done next turn. Hunting in 1 turn and the 2 workers are ready to improve the ivory. I actually liked this timing, although the chop was the priority here.

Hunting finished, started Fishing. Workers on the ivory, settler done next turn. I changed the tile assignment last turn as we would only get 1 overflow anyway, so that the settler exactly finished and got 1 extra commerce.

Settler will take 3 turns to get to the city spot and workers need one more turn to finish the ivory. Selected the holkan as a placeholder.

Now there are decisions to make. Both workers can go to the second city to improve the corn? That is 4 turns of moving for both and they will eventually need to get back to chop for the capital, so probably not.

Maybe send one worker to improve the corn then chop for the second city. Probably the GL hill then maybe build a mine - we lose a good defensive tile but after settlement the warrior wants to push out anyway.

The other worker can either chop 1E of the capital to clear the movement path or mine the hill 1SE to gain another good tile. Due to the ivory the happy cap is 5 without a garrison.