My Irrational Fear of Tech Inferiority

[blitzkrieg1980]

I can clearly remember one of my first Noble games waaaaay back before BtS. I thought I was doing quite well having conquered my continent. Around the time that I'm slowly researching Assembly Line, Julius Caesar (another continent & another religion) demands a pile of gold from me. Mind you, this is before EPs and spies as we know them in BtS and I had tech trading turned off (so I couldn't see what he had). I see that his empire is smaller than mine, so I decline. A few turns later, he DoW on me and lands this gargantuan stack of infantry, artillery, and tanks off of his transports guarded by destroyers. I had to retire.

While this was way back on my early Noble attempts (before I even knew how to use the whip properly), I think this one game has deeply scarred me. Currently, I'm a so-so monarch player. Anytime I'm playing a game where I'm not the tech leader (or positioning myself to be such) by the late Medieval era, I begin to despair and wonder if I'm just bad at the game, in general. I'll often retire and just start a new game.

Is my fear of the AI being on par with techs irrational? I find myself reading through many write-ups and it seems like in good games, even on higher levels the player achieves tech superiority at some point before the late game which, somewhat, reinforces my fear of falling behind. I find myself focusing almost entirely on my tech rate / speed with respect to the rival AIs.

I guess what I need is someone to explain to me just how important it is to be at tech parity or tech superiority and if it should be the highest priority (besides a decent defensive army). On the other hand, should I stop worrying so much about tech superiority, and just focus on my immediate goals? Should my immediate goals always involve a good tech rate? Thanks ahead for any help!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Getting a tech advantage is one of the safest ways to win a game.
Getting a production advantage is the other safe way.
Note those two points aren't mutually exclusive. So pursuing both objectives is (always) worth it.

As far as war is concerned, there are ways around tech and production advantage.
- Siege initiative is the most obvious. Enables you to cripple then clear a stack.
- Roads for initiative as well, in your territory.
- Promotions (traits, buildings & civics can contribute) : going shock maces vs maces isn't strictly like maces vs axemen but it gives a real edge.
- Using the proper counter units to your opponent's army. A mix of Catapults, XBows and War Elephants, for example, will be hard to dislodge even to a force of Knights, Trebuchets and whatever. Needs the right strategic resources, though.

One never knows before trying. Try it again sometime ! Most important thing is to have adequate numbers and ensure the survival of whatever you can.

 

[Milith]

Emperor player here.

Being ahead in tech overall is not that important. What you should focus on instead is getting carefully chosen key techs before the AI does, and capitalize on it to achieve your goals (ie steps towards the victory condition you have chosen).

Plus, remember that via tech brokering, provided adequate diplomatic conditions are met, having one technology that no other AI has can get you back in the race again, by trading it for 4-5+ techs to different civs. The classic example is a quick Aesthetics, because AI rarely goes for it early on. While doing this, don't be afraid to give more than the AI gives you in each trade. Remember that if you give 2 for 1 to 5 AIs, you will still get 5 while they will all get only 2.

The overall lesson is to never tech something you know the AI will tech and trade, unless you need to get it faster for the bonus of getting it first (religion founding, free GP, liberalism) or if you need monopoly (key wonders or key military techs that help you hit and advantageous timing for a war).

 

[coanda]

Is my fear of the AI being on par with techs irrational? I find myself reading through many write-ups and it seems like in good games, even on higher levels the player achieves tech superiority at some point before the late game which, somewhat, reinforces my fear of falling behind. I find myself focusing almost entirely on my tech rate / speed with respect to the rival AIs.

It is quite possible to achieve any of the victory conditions without ever getting a general tech lead. Obviously being completely ahead in tech is a nice boost, but it's unnecessary.

Warmongering victories don't really care so much about general tech level as whether you can get specific military units before your chosen AI victims get specific counter-units. If you're planning Elepult, it's nice to have Construction before AIs start spamming longbows (although it's possible to make Elepult work at reasonable cost right up until they start mixing in Castles and Pikes). Similarly with crossbow rushes, you want Machinery before Feudalism spreads. If you're thinking about Cuirassiers or Cannon + musket, it's good to manage before your victim gets Rifling (but can be made to work even against modest numbers of Rifles if you have good production).

Cultural victory almost always falls behind in tech towards the end - you usually try to get a strong early empire which picks up early Music (free Great Artist plus Sistine Chapel), maybe founds a couple religions (for more Cathedrals), possibly grabs some carefully chosen Ancient/Classical/Medieval world wonders, then heads along towards Rifling + Steel or some other carefully chosen military techs which will be your final defense. Then you shut down research and spend it all on culture to speed up your victory, while the AIs catch up and pull slowly away in tech.

Apostolic Palace victory really only requires that you get Theology first, which is usually an easy bulb for a Great Prophet if you can generate one. After that, it really doesn't matter how far behind you are in tech because all you need is enough hammers to get some +diplo modifiers with people and build some missionaries.

Diplomatic victory can be achieved by bulbing your way towards Mass Media using Great Scientists; if you can get there early enough to be first to finish U.N., you're in fine shape even if you're well behind in tech elsewhere (you can always gift cities to get +diplo. modifiers if needed, so it's not like you need techs for gifting).

Spaceship victory... just get the Internet first. And destroy the spaceships of anyone who looks like they might launch/win first.

So I repeat, you don't need a tech edge. Most games in this forum are effectively won in the Medieval or Renaissance, but don't actually reach the victory screen until the Industrial or later, which is why when you look at write-ups here you see the players pulling tech edges later in the game. My favorite games are actually the ones where I can't get ahead in tech, because they're the ones where I have to get creative and very selective about how I play to try and get a win. Do not mistake cause and effect; the games posted here aren't won because they got a tech edge, they got a tech edge because they had already been effectively won.

All that said, if you are consistently falling behind in tech in the Renaissance or Industrial... that might indicate there is some sort of problem with poor early expansion or economic development in your gameplay, so it is a good lagging indicator of how well you've been playing (were you playing well 100 turns ago? Then you'll likely be teching well now).

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Thank you everyone for your responses! Great stuff here. I see my fears ARE somewhat irrational. I definitely shouldn't quit a game b/c of falling behind in tech. I should try to find a way out of the hole and use it as a lesson for what not to do next time.

Do not mistake cause and effect; the games posted here aren't won because they got a tech edge, they got a tech edge because they had already been effectively won.

This is a great sentence and has cleared a great deal of confusion up for me. I have been mistaking the cause & effect. Thank you for pointing that out.

Being ahead in tech overall is not that important. What you should focus on instead is getting carefully chosen key techs before the AI does, and capitalize on it to achieve your goals (ie steps towards the victory condition you have chosen).

Plus, remember that via tech brokering, provided adequate diplomatic conditions are met, having one technology that no other AI has can get you back in the race again, by trading it for 4-5+ techs to different civs. The classic example is a quick Aesthetics, because AI rarely goes for it early on. While doing this, don't be afraid to give more than the AI gives you in each trade. Remember that if you give 2 for 1 to 5 AIs, you will still get 5 while they will all get only 2.

I have turned off tech brokering since the option became available years ago. I am thinking of turning back on now. I've never learned how to properly leverage tech trades and I think that is a big part of my problem with teching on the middle difficulty levels (monarch/emperor). So thank you, kindly, for that bit of advice.

 

[ShengWuLien]

I have turned off tech brokering since the option became available years ago. I am thinking of turning back on now. I've never learned how to properly leverage tech trades and I think that is a big part of my problem with teching on the middle difficulty levels (monarch/emperor). So thank you, kindly, for that bit of advice.

Yes, tech-brokering can be a big help. On my last game with Suleiman (Emperor level) I REXed pretty hard and then had to spam axes to fight off a DOW from Shaka, falling badly behind in tech to a little bloc of two-shrine Hatty and her Hindu buddies. But by bulbing Philosophy as a monopoly tech (I held onto the GS until I had the prereqs to bulb this rather than Compass) I was able to trade and broker my way, not to the top of the tech standings, but close enough.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I can clearly remember one of my first Noble games waaaaay back before BtS. I thought I was doing quite well having conquered my continent. Around the time that I'm slowly researching Assembly Line, Julius Caesar (another continent & another religion) demands a pile of gold from me. Mind you, this is before EPs and spies as we know them in BtS and I had tech trading turned off (so I couldn't see what he had). I see that his empire is smaller than mine, so I decline. A few turns later, he DoW on me and lands this gargantuan stack of infantry, artillery, and tanks off of his transports guarded by destroyers. I had to retire.

While this was way back on my early Noble attempts (before I even knew how to use the whip properly), I think this one game has deeply scarred me. Currently, I'm a so-so monarch player. Anytime I'm playing a game where I'm not the tech leader (or positioning myself to be such) by the late Medieval era, I begin to despair and wonder if I'm just bad at the game, in general. I'll often retire and just start a new game.

You took the wrong lesson from this.

The problem wasn't that you lost the tech lead. The problem was that you were playing blind. Specifically, because you weren't keeping track of the clues that were available to you, you had failed to notice that you were in a losing position.

Even with tech trading turned off, etc, there were almost certainly clues that your position was highly unfavorable (power ranking? GNP? etc).

If you want to be winning more often/against harder difficulties, then you've got to (a) learn what to pay attention to and (b) actually pay attention to it.

Victories don't just happen - you've got to work for them.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Everyone got all the big items, but one tip for no tech trades games: Get Alphabet! It lets you see what techs everyone can research, which lets you figure out what techs they already have.

Don't get it right away. It's much less good than in tech trades games. But don't ignore it, either.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Thank you all, again, for taking the time to help me. Back when I experienced the traumatic stomping by JC, I was really quite bad. You guys are right, I should have taken in clues as to the status of other players. But, really, i just remember the stomping. It was so long ago that I just see the stack in my head when falling behind. For some reason, this never happens with FIN leaders in a cottage heavy game. I really need to work on my specialist economy.

I've been checking out your no-cottage games, OneLeggedRhino, and I just can't seem to emulate your techniques. But your writeups are some of the most detailed and well explained, so I'll just keep reading and eventually I will catch on. Thanks again.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Just remember there's a difference between an advantage and a victory.

A tech advantage is merely just that, a mere advantage. If you don't take advantage if it, it will start to decay and so will your chances of a win. There is no victory for getting all the techs, after all.

Thus you must find a way to translate that advantage into something concrete that lets you win. The most common way is to use your production to attack others or build a Space Ship. If you take Rifling 30 turns before everyone else, but take 40 turns to come up with a stack, then it was pretty moot if your enemy has superior production. But if you are able to come up with an army even within 20 turns of getting Rifling, then those few turns the AI doesn't have Rifling would be painful for them.

Due to the per-era AI bonuses on higher difficulties, it is often much easier to press your advantage in the Renaissance and perhaps grab vassals to take advantage of AI bonuses.

Also, learning to war at parity helps too. Usually involves siege use and airpower later on.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Good tips. Warring at parity has been a rarity for me given my insistence on tech superiority. I never thought about the per era bonuses the AI gets, so thank you for pointing that out. Also, focusing on techs as a TEMPORARY advantage versus a longstanding one is another great point. At lower levels, once you get tech superiority, you tend to keep it. Thank you for pointing out that on higher levels, this is not so. I'm going to attempt a non-FIN leader game tonight. We'll see how it goes. Thanks again.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Okay. I did a random fractal map last night and drew Mansa. granted he is FIN, but there wasn't much cottagable land and I planned on a hybrid trade/farm economy since there were a bunch of food heavy single tile islands. Since I had a bunch of dyes, I figured they could provide gold.

Long story short, I'm clearly on my way to a domination win. I've been at tech parity with 2 friendly civs since the early game but I've bee-lined military techs and begun my backstab while they've been going up the sci meth line. Leveraging my military tech advantage, I've started to pull away in overall techs.

One thing I've noticed is that, with a good economy on monarch, it seems that trade brokering helps the AI keep up more than myself. All game I was at parity so when I traded for techs with a monopoly tech, there wasn't anything of value to get from my newly acquired techs. Yet the AI was buzzing along with a "meh" economy probably by utilizing trade brokering. If I can whoop this much ass on my next monarch game, ill move up to emperor where brokering might actually help me!

 

[Milith]

On Monarch, tech brokering helps you stay afloat if your strategy forces you to pay heavy maintenance before you can really afford it. Namely, early rushes, REXing or aggressive settling.

But indeed, imo Monarch is still easy enough to pull out convincing victories without this kind of shenanigans.

 

[civvver]

I don't do hardly any tech brokering on monarch, the AI simple techs to slow. I do some on emp, but usually only around the asthetics level to backfill while I go for top tree techs and try to trade my way into stuff like alphabet, construction, optics.

I think the biggest thing to remember though is production > all because production can be converted into units, buildings, money or research. In the beginning food > all because you need to grow to work tiles to get production. But towards the end of the game you can come from behind in tech and military if you have good production. There's actually AI limits to how many units they can build. On monarch I think it's something like 60%. So you can make all your cities produce units and they can only do 6/10. If you can outproduce the AI you can win a war with equal tech, sometimes even less (like tons of catapults and axes vs longbows or artillery and cavalry vs infantry).

A good example of when I did this was my Joao GEM game. Now granted this is a scenario so results are a little different but I was way behind the old world in tech but once I got state property and converted the entire amazon into watermills and workshops I shot way ahead in production and used that to build science and build a spaceship and win.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

@civver:

Very good stuff, man, thank you. Impressive move with making the amazon into a hammer economy. I didn't realize that late game hammers could provide so much research. I will definitely be looking out for an opportunity to try this, myself.

 

[cseanny]

Getting a production advantage is the other safe way.

Production is where its at. I don't know how many times I turn the research slider off after I have Engineering, Fued, and Guilds. Even on Immortal you can mop the floor with Treb/Phant/Knight till scary late in the game.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

--I'M USURPING MY OWN THREAD--

Because nobody reads the tech support forum anymore and my Civ4 has crashed & burned, I need help, PLEASE!

I had to uninstall everything (including vanilla) and reinstall it all which happened fairly successfully. But now there are NO FOLDERS in the "My Documents\My Games" folder. You know, where you put the CustomAssets... it didn't install! WTH? Please help me, guys, as Civ4 is no longer working without those folders!

 

[Mouthwash]

--I'M USURPING MY OWN THREAD--

Because nobody reads the tech support forum anymore and my Civ4 has crashed & burned, I need help, PLEASE!

I had to uninstall everything (including vanilla) and reinstall it all which happened fairly successfully. But now there are NO FOLDERS in the "My Documents\My Games" folder. You know, where you put the CustomAssets... it didn't install! WTH? Please help me, guys, as Civ4 is no longer working without those folders!

I guess try reinstalling again or downloading backup files from Civfanatics (I'm sure somebody must've put them up).

Wish I could help more but I don't know much about these things.

 

[coanda]

--I'M USURPING MY OWN THREAD--

Because nobody reads the tech support forum anymore and my Civ4 has crashed & burned, I need help, PLEASE!

I had to uninstall everything (including vanilla) and reinstall it all which happened fairly successfully. But now there are NO FOLDERS in the "My Documents\My Games" folder. You know, where you put the CustomAssets... it didn't install! WTH? Please help me, guys, as Civ4 is no longer working without those folders!

Assuming you've already tried re-installing again to make sure it wasn't a one-time problem...
I glanced through the My Games BtS folder. Besides a whole lot of empty folders (which I hope the game can manage without), the only actual files in there are CivilizationIV.ini (which is important, and you should probably try to find), and some stuff in the \Logs folder which it might work without. I recommend trying to find a copy of CivilizationIV.ini, and dropping it in My Games\beyond the sword\ and seeing if that fixes it? If that doesn't, you'll probably have to find someone who can send you an entire copy of their My Games\beyond the sword\ folder then go through by hand and fix any broken file paths and whatnot.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I uninstalled/reinstalled everything again and put civ in the c:\ root directory. Ran the game 1 time before installing BTS, ran it again, installed the patch, ran it again, then installed blue marble, then installed BUG manually, and changed permissions/set to run as administrator. It works. Thanks for your help! I can finally start playing my improved monarch skills now!