Nation Bashing

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Sgt.Hellfish

Btw does any1 know how Wales came into the union of Britain (i mean Scotland and England have ties in their monarchy etc but i dont know when or how wales joined Great Britain)

Wales was conquered by England. There is a meaningless Act of Union in 1584 which formally incorporated the Principality of Wales into the Kingdom of England, but Wales had been taken over centuries before. Ireland similarly was taken over centuries before the Act of Union (1801) formally merged Ireland with England and Scotland into the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. To a certain extent, the Treaty of Union (1707) which led to the annexation of Scotland was similar, but the Scots had a tradition of independence which made it the only meaningful act of the three.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by lmsw08233
My point is that the older nations have the right to be called "Civilizations" because of the mark they have left on the world and because they are all ancient nations which as sheep has said - have stood the test of time.

I can think of many more Civilizations far more worthy of the spot the USA occupies - but in saying that I would not remove the USA from Civ 3, in fact if i was Sid Meier i most definately wouldn include the US in the game if only to increase potential for sales.

America has dominated the 20th century and will certainly dominate the next. There's no question that America deserves a place in my mind. They lasted as long as the "Aztec" and the Incan states. America is a distinctive civilization, but it's a civilization so dominant in the modern world that one doesn't even notice it. Every civilization ultimately has its origins somewhere else; I don't see why America is anything special here

Originally posted by lmsw08233


In comparason with the rest of the nations/cultures included in the game such as the Mongols, Arabs, Indians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Japanese, English etc - the United States' influence and greatness barely an imprint on the history of the world.
And almost certainly US influence is rapidly waning as support for globalisation gains momentum.
.

I'm curious to know why you think the Japanese have had a bigger impact on history

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

lmsw, are you trying to say the USA hasnt made a mark on the world? We haven't stood the test of time? I think perhaps you may be behind the times my friend.

Americans invented most of the inventions around you. If they didnt invent it, no doubt they improved it. No America, no inventions (though that statement could never be proved i admit). Then there are different human rights laws that America helped expand, although i admit that the UK also used them, perhaps early than the US. The world would be a much more primitive place if it wasnt for the USA.

And then there's our democratic government, which gave free speech and the ability to elect the highest officials and pioneered democracy in other nations as well. The mere fact that we have prospered and grown to be the world's current only superpower testifies to our government's strength (though it still could be improved).

 

[erez87]

America invented most ? come on.

Your Federation ideas was copied from Iroqious...

USA did made an impact on the world.

And calgacus. You know who invented machine guns? ones of the most used weopns in the world to this day?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by erez87

And calgacus. You know who invented machine guns? ones of the most used weopns in the world to this day?

If you're going to tell me it was the Chinese or ancient Egyptians or something then don't bother.

The machine gun wasn't a singular invention, it arose from several refinements in the late 19th century, like those of Richard Gatling and Hiram Maxim.

 

[Sgt.Hellfish]

Americans invented most of the inventions around you. If they didnt invent it, no doubt they improved it. No America, no inventions

What complete and utter tosh

 

[erez87]

It was the japanies calgacus. They already have an impact on our history. Already WW1 history is somhow with them in it. They invented the killing machines that killed so many

USA inveted the Atom bomb, well not realy, it was a German Jew scientict who started the invention and english people who ended it...

 

[Pangur Bán]

No, erez87, it wasn't the Japanese. Like I said, it wasn't a singular invention. But, if you wouldn't mind (not that this has any effect on the argument), what precisely was their contribution as you perceive it?

 

[Angelscotboi]

Calgacus I think erez means the Professor/Inventor who patented the Machine Gun invention first? if not that then perhaps the nation which first used it in great quantities?

Calgacus thats a good point about the Aztecs and Incans - I conceed to you that yes they lasted about the same length as the USA has, but I also put to you that the Aztecs and Incans had a rich culture all their own whereas the USA does not.
The USA culture as it were is nothing more than a "melting pot" of ideas and cultures from all over the world.
I stand by my conclusion that the USA is in Civ because it is needed to boost sales.

Japan has had a bigger impact on the world than the USA because of one thing - the fact that the USA kicked the crap out of them in WW2 and forbade them from having an offensive army.
The energies they used to expend on warfare had to go somewhere so they channelled it into their ingrained creative psyche - and as a result many great companies and great inventions for which you Americans love to claim as your own inventions, has popped up.
Any field which a Japanese company enters into - in any industry - the Japanese company will out perform, and generally outclass its US competitors. IE Xbox vs Playstation 2.

EQ - the USA has most certainly not stood the test of time - 300 years is hardly the test of time.
I am annoyed at you blatantly incorrect and offensive arrogance EQ.
The USA is not culturally influential. Not when half the world bloody well hates the USA and the other half can barely tolerate it - that is not culturally influential.
The USAs only cultural influence around the world is movies and microsoft; and even those things have their roots in other nations, other cultures, and other peoples ideas.

The idea that the USA invented most things is preposterous - most of the USAs famous inventors are people from other countries who moved to the US - the only famous US inventor is Thomas Edison.

Most of the Modern inventions came from nations other than the USA - and the only involvement the USA had is funding the research projects. And as for the improving most of them thats not really true either (apart from Microsoft but thats a special case) because Japan seems to do most of the improving to modern non military technology.

And i havent said the USA hasnt made an impact in the world - if you had read what I said - i said comparatively speaking (that means in comparason to for your tiny brain) the USA hasnt made much of an impact when you consider other civilizations in the game and in the world.

Name for me one Non-Thomas Edison invention that the USA can claim as its own? That actually has an impact in the world? And the George Foreman Grill doesnt count.

 

[erez87]

Yeah I ment they first to realy use it in a war. Aginst Russia in the Japanies-Russian war where Japan somhow was the first country outside of Europe who truly beaten up a europian country. And no only that Russia! tons of troops
After their victory Europians emarced the Macine guns (no one embraced their naval tactics tought, they had truly perfect ones)

Ad i belive lmso is explaining much better than me so I'll shut up until I have somthing to say...

 

[Jason The King]

lmsw, thats the thing, no one in America (besides native americans) are truly American. Everyone is an immigrant to this country.

That's the thing, our nation attracts many hundreds of thousands from the world. Because the country is so great, we attract great minds such as einstine and edison and tesla.

Many could argue the culture of the USA. Yes it is a blend, but how does that not make it a culture of America? It is. The culture of hamburgers, barbeques, hollywood, Democratic qualities, industrious manner, disneyland, and we have music as well (though I do know much is from England).

If you ask me, the test of time throughout the 300 years has been one of the hardest 300 years. America stood against the much stronger British and French empires, and America grew.

Again, I am not for the classification of America as a civ, just showing that most of your allegations are false. Most people can't tell how great the USA really is until you are here.

Oh, and Sheep, Skilord made the signature.

And Sheep, frankly, I do not believe Australia is all angels and heavenly quires. If anybody cared to know much about Australia, your statements could probably be rebuttled easily.

Jason

 

[tossi]

America vs The World "discussion" never end good...

but: I think one of the most important things why america is a superpower is: its damn big! and its not only damn big like russia most of these single states are very industrialy too.

and america invented all those great things around us? well... it invented all those bad things around us too...

the world is bad and america helped in makign it bad... (wiht bad i mean everything non-positive i.e kids playing pc all the day, terrorism, massive polution etc...

all governments are somehow corrupt, but you see america all the day in the news (have you every seen the president or king,dictator whatever of yemen in the news?)

 

[RoddyVR]

wow, such hostility.
and all started about weather the US is better then Australia or not.
what's the difference?
Russia is still #1. lol.

i cant believe you guys have spent so much writen word on arguing wheather the US should be considered a CIVILIZATION or not.
that's not even to mention that weather a civ is in the game, has no bearing on the game itself. its just names and nothing else.
it aint like each nation has a distinct AI or anything.
the game isnt realistic anyway. most civilizations can only be considered such after they have BEEN THE WORLD POWER.
The US probably will be considered a Civilization in the future, but only after they've fallen. Wheather that takes a decade or a couple centuries is anyone's guess.

 

[Sgt.Hellfish]

1) Einstein, fled from Austria to Britain then onto America whilst they were neutral in WW2 so really he was a refugee.

2) Britain invented the computer.

3) terroism has allways existed and allways will it has just sparked up recently. Hell we (the UK) have been fighing various forms of the IRA and the Unionists in Ireland for decades. (and the yanks sometimes gave em aid!! people not the nation i belive).

4) America calls itself the land of teh free whilst it holds people with no charge and forces itself upon foreign nations. As i said before complete tosh.

 

[Angelscotboi]

I was not trying to belittle the contribution the United States has made to the modern world - indeed without the financial power of the USA much of the world would very likely be in the grip of dictatorial communism.

I am simply trying to point out that having an arguement over Australia and American being a Civilization and their merits as nations in Civilization 3 is stupid because quite frankly niether can be considered a Civilization.
They are a country on their own independent and sovereign - they have their emerging culture which has been gradually growing in influence and giving the American people a national entity.
But that does not make them a Civilization.

Australia has their own culture and national identity and independent and soveriegn Government - but they are not a Civilization either.

However one day America may become a Civilization in its own right - we will need to wait and see.

 

[IceEye]

I like have american friends and I like them alot. When me and my family were in the US most people were very nice and welcoming. It´s not the people I don´t like, it´s the way america interferes in matters were it doesn´t belong. Another thing that I don´t like about america is their ignorance towards the rest of the world. Like not wanting to cut down pollution or just don´t care about what the UN says.
And americas army is definitely not the best equipped or best trained.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

nah, we're probably best equiped. Best trained can be argued though. And the majority of United Statesians i know don't give a damn about the UN and think it is a big waste of our money and time. Also most of us wish that we went isolationist again. I fully agree with those.

Hellfish, you may have invented the computer, but we made it better.

 

[erez87]

EQ USA made the UN (and the thing that was befor). Now they hate it? It's like hating your hated son that tried to kill you lol

Not best trained thats for sure. Probably 80% of the deaths in rhe Irak war was problems. Chopters going into each other, Americans hitting british air-planes. Well you know what I mean, so it's sure not be most Trained. And might be best equiped. Just with stuff that don't work or get viruses

 

[Jason The King]

lmsw, what do you consider a civilization?

And believe me people, your governments are most likely just as bad as America's. Just, like tossi said, you don't see anyother nation on television. You live in your nation, you don't hear about it's wrongdoings. Same thing with America. So maybe you just aren't as learned on your own government as you are on the United States.

And don't fill this up with prideful remarks. Everyone knows America has it's faults. JUST LIKE EVERY NATION. America's is more publisized, because the US is a world power. When the Soviet Union was a world power, you heard about their wrong doings as well.

Hell, other medias might be using the United State's flaws as a sort of propoganda on you to not like the US, showing you only the flaws and not the good. Or maybe its just that you are so used to the good stuff, the bad stuff really shocks you.

Again, America and Australia and Canada and etc, should not be a civ in Civilization IMHO. Just to let you know my stance on that, lol.

Jason

 

[Jason The King]

Erez, how can you compare that to anyother countries? There are so many variables that could have made it happen in Iraq that wouldn't somewhere else.

Edit: Yes, the United States of 1940's made the UN, not the United States now. Two different times and two different people, erez.