National Wonder combinations

[Sisiutil]

This thread got me thinking about this topic again. What are your favourite combinations of national wonders? Which do you find have the best synergy?

I usually use a couple of combinations which are different, it seems, from what others do:

• National Epic/Oxford University: I usually try to build the Great Library in this, my science city (which is usually my capital). The GL gives me those two free scientists, and when combined with more scientists and the NE, this city turns into a Great Scientist farm. Oxford usually comes along right around the time the GL is made obsolete, and it allows me to run several scientists to compensate for that.
• Ironworks/Globe Theatre: When I get steel I start building the Ironworks in a city with lots of river tiles for watermills. I then grow the city to its maximum size to work every tile and also run several engineers. It then becomes a combination wonder/military/spaceship powerhouse. Having the Globe there ensures that the city's production never flags because of unhappiness from growth, war weariness, etc.

I know a lot of people prefer to have a GP farm where they usually place the Globe and the NE. (I also almost always go with the popular Heroic Epic/West Point combination in my military city, though.) What NW combinations do you find work best?

 

[Scaramanga]

If it's out in the boonies, I may pair the Forbidden Palace and the Hermitage together in a city.

 

[svv]

1. National Epic/Wall street

I'll usually do this if I have a spiritual leader, so that I have shrines in my capital. The capital starts as a science and money city, but moves to being a money only city. In any case, it's my oldest city, and probably has the most gp generating stuff in it, so it's the best place for National Epic (and later, Wall Street)

2. National Epic/Oxford

I'll usually do this if I have a financial-type civ, where my capital is my science city. Again, the capital will be the oldest city with the most wonders, etc. generating gp points, so it's the best place for national epic.

3. Heroic Epic/West point

This is what I'll have in my main military production city if I've been fairly warlike, and have gone after military tradition (and have level 5 units). If I've got a bunch of cash later, I can buy a unit from this city every turn and have a bunch of powerful units fairly quickly.

4. Heroic Epic/Ironworks

This is what I'll do in my military production city if I've played a fairly peaceful game, and not bothered to research military tradition. This city will build military units very quickly after it gets set up.

5. Hermitage/Globe Theatre

In the rare cases when I'm going for cultural victory, one of my three cities tends to be the science city, one the shrine/economic city, so I'll force a third cultural city, and these two can help a long way toward that.

 

[Meatbuster]

I don't know, but do you think is it counterintuitive to put Wall Street + Oxford in a cottage spam city, then Nat. Epic in another city which happens to be a GP farm?

 

[svv]

I used to put wall street and oxford in my capital when I had a financial-type civ, thinking the city (with a lot of commerce) would generate a lot of science when I had the slider that way, and a lot of cash when I had the slider that way. But that was before I understood the power of the shrines and the money/religion city. I'd much rather have my shrine(s) in a city with wall street, with farms and priest/merchant specialists, and my commerce/towns in another city.

 

[Silver Marmot]

Probably the only combination I regularly use is Heroic Epic/West Point, for obvious reasons. I place the other wonders where I think they'll best belong, depending on what cities I have available.

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I like Wall street in a holy city with a well spread religion actually. You can then put anything else (maybe Hermitage there)

HE+WP is obvious

I like the GL+Oxford+NE combo...

 

[bippukt]

I want to ask a question about GP farms. Is it best to have a separate GP farms for great scientists and great engineers? Or is it better to have a combined GP farm for both? Because if I have a combined GP farm, then I can get more GPPs from that one city and hence more GPs overall, even though it's not the best way to get a Great Scientist when you want one. Also, what do you make more of - great scientist or great engineer. I have played several games and I am not really sure. Because great engineers are mainly used for wonder rushing, and since I can't (or don't want to) have too many of them, I am personally inclined towards the scientists. Academies are great for research and provide a much needed culture boost.
Also, how much do you you use great scientists for lightbulbing the techs. Personally, I do it only in the mid-game, as earlier on I feel that its a waste(techs are cheap) and later on techs are too costly. Of course, if its a vital tech, by all means I pop it. Improvement in this area of my game will, I hope, lead me to Monarch from Prince. Though I must admit, Prince is fun without really requiring me to sweat unless I get a bad start.

 

[bassist2119]

bippukt - we can assume your GP farm question pertains to a CE?

The only Nwonder combos that I always partake in regards the capital. Lately, I've been running beaurocracy the entire game, and maximizing it's effects with Ironworks and Oxford (Note: in the occasional instance where I use an SE, substitute Wall Street for Oxford.) As the big producer Nwonder is in the capital, this leaves only HE to go into the military pump, tied to WP, of course.

I'd be interested in hearing people's rationale regarding the placement of the Nwonders that haven't been mentioned yet, particularly Rushmore. Upon getting Fascism, it's GO TIME, so it needs to be up as soon as possible, so I usually put it in the third highest production city, but only as a default solution and without any particular pairing. As it is a crucial empire bonus w/o any consequence to the city it goes in, it doesn't fold well into any of my diabolical plans. Thoughts?

 

[Blake]

Here are some less obvious combos I'm fond of.

Heroic Epic / Oxfords. When? This is for the capital with settled Great Scientists, when you have a better Ironworks city lined up and aren't planning on extensive late game warfare. Often you get tremendous bang-from-buck from an early HE and the capital is usually the best place. Westpoint is often of no real consequence.

Wall Street / Ironworks. When? This works great with mass settled great prophets and great merchants in a city with strong production and a shrine. To get benefit from wall street you don't need to have any commerce in a city - it can just use the shrine and settled GP's (this is especially true when you enjoy 100% science - commerce is removed from the equation). Wall Street is very expensive and has no booster so it helps to build it in a strong production city, also I find that nothing really pairs up that well with IW since IW should be for building wonders 95% of the time and most NW's aren't conductive to that.

Iron Works / National Epic: When? In cases with no marble I may not bother with the NE earlier. Then I build it in the IW city to get mass Great Engineers, which usually get settled back into the IW city to get truly massive wonder and SS production. The NE also helps boost the GPP from all the late game wonders the city is spamming out.

Iron Works / Globe Theatre: When? I'm planning on sickening war-weariness (nukes?) and want a stable production city for wonders and projects.

 

[UncleJJ]

3. Heroic Epic/West point

This is what I'll have in my main military production city if I've been fairly warlike, and have gone after military tradition (and have level 5 units). If I've got a bunch of cash later, I can buy a unit from this city every turn and have a bunch of powerful units fairly quickly.

This is the traditional pairing for the Unit Production City in vanilla, but I am beginning to question it for several reasons in Warlords. We now have a GGs that can either give military advisor for +2 exp (= half WP but no construction time) or military academy (= half a HE in any city post Education). A major problem with the HE + WP pairing is the time and 800 hammers it takes to build the WP... that is lost unit production time from a city with military advisors.

So I have been investigating the possibility of building 2 military cities. The first is based around HE plus military advisors and builds the early units. Then later in the middle game I build a second military city based on a good production city (forge, factory, coal +100% production) to build WP and then add a military academy (+50%) and if coastal a drydock (+50% +4 exp for naval). Using that approach it is easy to get a lot of level 4 units (need 10 exp) in the Industrial age which in many cases is better than a lot fewer level 5 units (needs 17 exp). Of course all those calculations change with a charismatic leader (units need 2, 4, 8 and 13 exp for their promotions) but if anything that makes the case for building 2 good unit production cities even stronger.

A final thought that has stimulated this idea is the fact that the AI often build a military academy and these can be captured . If that military academy is in a good production city it makes sense to put WP there and maybe settle another GG as a military advisor depending on what units you want and their promotions.

4. Heroic Epic/Ironworks

This is what I'll do in my military production city if I've played a fairly peaceful game, and not bothered to research military tradition. This city will build military units very quickly after it gets set up.

I am not a builder but this seems a bad pairing in many situations. Ironworks takes a long time to build (unless Industrious) and that reduces unit production. And when you have the two wonders together they get +200% on unit production and that is often too much and gives hammer overflow which can mean wasted hammers in a city with good hammers when building units with low cost. Hammer overflow is limited to the unit cost so for instance if you build infantry in a city with more than 140 hammers, there will be overflow. I usually restrict myself to HE and forge, factory and powerplant in my main Unit production city plus military advisors and stables and maybe drydock if possible and a big fleet is needed.

The two are better built in different cities. Ironworks is good at building key late game wonders such as Pentagon and maybe Broadway etc and that conflicts with the need to use HE to build units. Between building wonders Ironworks can still help produce units.

Wall Street / Ironworks. When? This works great with mass settled great prophets and great merchants in a city with strong production and a shrine. To get benefit from wall street you don't need to have any commerce in a city - it can just use the shrine and settled GP's (this is especially true when you enjoy 100% science - commerce is removed from the equation). Wall Street is very expensive and has no booster so it helps to build it in a strong production city, also I find that nothing really pairs up that well with IW since IW should be for building wonders 95% of the time and most NW's aren't conductive to that.

This is one of my favourite combinations in a captured enemy capital that has a shrine. It is so powerful producing loads of hammers, loads of gold and with Angkor Wat and plenty of food the priests make even more GPs to settle and boost gold and hammer output further. Madrid is good for this 50% of the time if Izzy is a neighbour, as she usually gets Buddihism or Hinduism and builds a shrine for you. My tip is wait until she builds the shrine before taking her out as that saves you a GP

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

• Ironworks/Globe Theatre: When I get steel I start building the Ironworks in a city with lots of river tiles for watermills. I then grow the city to its maximum size to work every tile and also run several engineers. It then becomes a combination wonder/military/spaceship powerhouse. Having the Globe there ensures that the city's production never flags because of unhappiness from growth, war weariness, etc.

I've given some thought to the Globe. The two obvious uses for it are whip based production, or dropping it into a farm to keep things happy.

But I keep thinking that it may be possible to leverage it more quickly by combining the Globe Theatre with Bureaucracy - to get the cottage spammed capital up to full size as quickly as possible.

 

[UncleJJ]

But I keep thinking that it may be possible to leverage it more quickly by combining the Globe Theatre with Bureaucracy - to get the cottage spammed capital up to full size as quickly as possible.

The Globe takes too long to research and building all those other theatres is a major delay. Running HR is the fastest way to make the capital big and get those cottages worked up for Bureaucracy, just build cheap units in nearby feeder cities and send them to garrison it. The units might cost a bit of maintenance but much less than the gains and they have the bonus of increasing the power curve. I suppose the Globe could be used later to free up the big stack of units or if you want to switch out of HR but that could be a 100 turns away.

 

[Scaramanga]

Globe Theater + National Epic is a favourite of mine for great person farming. No unhappiness problems for lots of specialists; goes well with expansive civs too.

 

[Preston85]

I usually do Heroic Epic + Ironworks so my production city is producing more, higher experienced units..

Thanks for bringing this up, I haven't thought about other options before this.

 

[acidsatyr]

not sure if anyone likes this but,
Iron W. + National Epic is very powerful for getting those late GE, which is the most (only) usefull great person at that stage of a game.
Especially good with Frederick and his cheap UB factory which allows assignment of extra two GE for a total of 8. And hes philo.

 

[ChicagoCubs]

Here are my favorite cominations:

Heroic Epic + West Point: as discussed

Iron Works + Red Cross: I like it in a coastal city so my ships will begin with Medic I. I will also crank out my garrison troops here while the HE+WP turns out the attacking troops.

National Epic + Globe Theatre: GP farm. I go for straight population here, then turn them into specialists.

Forbidden Palace + Hermitage: Usually built in a captured foriegn city to establish my cultural presense there.

Wall Street, Oxford: I will tend to try to specialize my science and commerce cities so I will plop these down in the respective cities.

 

[svv]

I'm now experimenting with a Oxford/Ironworks combo in my main science city.

As outlined here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192262 my capital has my shrines, National Epic, and Wall Street, and is serving as my religious/money city. I shifted my science city to a city that had 5 hills, as well as a food special and a bunch of flood plains.

By putting Ironworks in my science city, I can (1) quickly build later wonders while still churning out the science, (2) easily produce any health or happiness buildings I need, as well as the laboratory, (3) easily relocate the palace here if I so choose, and (4) if nothing else needs to be done, turn my massive hammers into science.

As bassist says above, you'll really get it cranking if it's your capital and you're in bureaucracy.

 

[Eggolas]

National Epic/Oxford: Probably 90% of the time or more as it's my capital, heavily cottaged and good production in Bureaucracy.

Iron Works/West Point: Very often, this city happens to be a workshop heavy, jungle-cleared site available in the mid-game. It really doesn't need the Heroic Epic to quickly produce military units.

Heroic EpicVery often, the HE is simply a stand alone city. Other times, it's built in an older production city that also happens to gain a shrine or two. Thus, Wall Street is often paired with HE, not for synergy, but for necessity.

Hermitage and Globe Theatre: I often play without even building the Globe Theatre or the Hermitage, but if I'm waging a culture war, they get built.

 

[Phrederick]

I am not a builder but this seems a bad pairing in many situations. Ironworks takes a long time to build (unless Industrious) and that reduces unit production. And when you have the two wonders together they get +200% on unit production and that is often too much and gives hammer overflow which can mean wasted hammers in a city with good hammers when building units with low cost. Hammer overflow is limited to the unit cost so for instance if you build infantry in a city with more than 140 hammers, there will be overflow. I usually restrict myself to HE and forge, factory and powerplant in my main Unit production city plus military advisors and stables and maybe drydock if possible and a big fleet is needed.

That is dependent upon the speed, though. I usually play on Epic, and rarely have situations where the current units can be built in one turn and still have over flow. On Normal, I often end up in situations with excess wasted hammers.

I do try to keep Ironworks away from my unit-producing national wonders, because I want to be able to use it for wonders. One thing I've been toying with is dropping HE in a moderate-production city, like #3 or so. There's situations where I might try to build 2 wonders at once, which would waste HE if it's in one of those cities. Putting it in a smaller city that only builds units sometimes is a better use for it.