Need help with an English to Classical Latin translation

SG-17

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My one friend asked me to translate "Live Life to Live" in Classical Latin for her because I took three years of Latin in highschool. Of course literally it should be vive vita vivere, but is that grammatically correct in Classical Latin? It feels weird.

I think that vive ut vivas would be more appropriate though. Live so that you may live.
 
Sorry to bump this, but she wants to get it as a tattoo so some quick input would be appreciated.
 
vive vita vivere is

a) incorrect because only certain verbs can take infinitives, like velle, posse etc.
b) (most importantly) incorrect because vivere is intransitive and so should not take an noun.
c) incorrect because, even if we negate (b) then vita should be put into the accusative as vitam.

Therefore vive ut vivas would be far more idiomatic, yes.

It might be even more idiomatic to be plural if you want to make it more general, as vivite ut vivatis, but that depends on precisely what is meant in the context.
 
Thought so.

I wish my college would let non-language major freshman take languages. It has been five months since I last was actively learning Latin. :(
 
You can't even take optional courses in languages?
 
My one friend asked me to translate "Live Life to Live" in Classical Latin for her because I took three years of Latin in highschool. Of course literally it should be vive vita vivere, but is that grammatically correct in Classical Latin? It feels weird.

I think that vive ut vivas would be more appropriate though. Live so that you may live.

It should be...

vive vitam vivendo
 
It is the dative (or possibly ablative, but then it wouldn't make much sense) form of the noun vivendum, which is the gerund of the verb vivere. "Vive vitam vivendo" is literally "Live for living life." While not technically incorrect, such a construction is still rather awkward. When an object is used the Romans strongly preferred to switch to a passive construction using a gerundive (which is formed like a gerun but treated as an adjective instead of a noun so it should be declined to agree with the gender and number of that which it describes rather than always being neuter singular) instead of a gerund. (I recall one Latin textbook I read seemed to complain that Roman authors were averse to using the gerund and would use the gerundive instead even when the gerund was the better choice.) As such, I would instead recommend "vive ad vitam vivendam."


"Vive ut vivas" would also work, as would "vive ut vitam vivas. " There is nothing wrong with using a Cognate Object with a normally intransitive verb. This is a figure of speech that was quite common in classical poetry, especially when meant to add emphasis.


I generally prefer a passive gerundive construction though. Not only does it avoid the issue of whether you are talking to one person or many (which does not matter much when combined with an imperative, as that needs to be conjugated for the proper number too), but it generally seems stronger. Using a subjective verb says that you may do it, but a gerundive conveys a sense of duty that you should or must do it. In "vive vitam videndam," the life is to be lived, no mater what, and the imperative is just the speaker is saying that you'd better be the one to live it. In "vive videndo" the speaker is just personally ordering you to live for the sake of living, as if you have no deeper reason to endure in life.
 
Thank you, this is very fascinating and helpful.
We never went beyond Future Perfect in my high school Latin class, we basically followed the order of the Table of Contents of this Wiki page. We never even touched on non-finite forms. I'll really have to read up on and practice what I already know over the course of the next year so that when I am allowed to take Latin in college I will not have forgotten what I have already learned. I hope I can get my hands on some copies of Ecce Romani I, II, and III (which we never got to).
 
Technically we never even got that far. My Latin classes ran behind schedule, only really only finished up the material of Latin II at the end of Latin III. (We moved to block scheduling my Junior year of high school, so you could say it was really just 2 years of Latin at the normal pace although we should have covered twice as much in the longer class periods.) I still got into the Georgia Governors Honors Program in Latin though, which could be taken to mean that I was one of the 15 best Latin scholars in all the high schools in the state, but that is assuming a perfect selection process and ignoring that fact that only 2 students are eligible from each school. When I returned for my senior year of high school I did AP Latin, although normally there is another course before that. There was going to be one other student in the AP class but she changed her mind because of schedule conflicts, and was a year younger anyway so ended up taking it the text year when there was a class of 3. Anyway, it was basically independent study. The teacher gave me the book containing the first half of the Aeneid at the start of the first semester, although AP Latin was a second semester class. She did not tell me specifically what to translate, so I assumed I had to translate it all. It was slow going at first, but as i assumed I had a lot ahead of me I focused on it, brought it with me to work on at lunch every day, and by the end of the first semester I had translated a little more than a book and a half. I then lost all I had written at the start of the second semester, and had to start over. I had gotten better at it by then though, and so managed to redo everything from the first semester in 2 weeks. I then finished the last of the assigned translations on valentines day, and just goofed off in that class for the rest of the semester. I still managed to get a 5 out of 5 on the Latin (Virgil) AP exam though, and considered it the easiest AP exam I ever took. Georgia Tech does not have Latin so I have taken no courses in it since 2006, but I did get a Vulgate which I read at least once a week at church.


We used the Cambridge Series, which I hear is not as good as Ecce Romani. (Before starting Latin I also got an old and battered copy of what I hear is the best of all the Latin textbooks, which I would skim occasionally on my own.) Cambridge did use gerundives a couple times as early as the first book, but did not explain them until the third book. They always had gloss translations, but as a rule I never trust glosses. They are rarely literal, and only serve to hide the idiomatic workings of the tongue. Whereas most students did not bother trying to figure out what such phrases meant when there was a gloss, I always insisted on trying to figure out for myself what it meant, from context if not researching on my own. The last thing we learned in Latin III was how to use a basic gerundive, but I'd figured it out long before then and understood them better than the teacher. I love gerundives, and although it can be really awkward to try to translate them in some contexts they seem to be especially eloquent and easy to understand.



Our class never got to Future Perfect Indicative or Perfect Subjunctive, except maybe spending 2 minutes talking about them on the last day of class They aren't that hard to understand, but I still never really know how to translate them without sounding extremely awkward. It does not help that they are the same except in first person either.
 
It is the dative (or possibly ablative, but then it wouldn't make much sense) form of the noun vivendum, which is the gerund of the verb vivere. "Vive vitam vivendo" is literally "Live for living life." While not technically incorrect, such a construction is still rather awkward. When an object is used the Romans strongly preferred to switch to a passive construction using a gerundive

And that's why Latin gives me a pain in the "anus". Its grammar is so restrictive and inflexible that it actually loses eloquence in translation from any other language. No wonder that an educated Roman often preferred Greek, which is far more eloquent and flexible.

I could more easily say this in Greek as:

ζη τον βιον ζων
 
I could more easily say this in Greek as:

ζη τον βιον ζων
Maybe my Greek is a bit rusty, but how is that any different from saying "vive vitam vivens." Does "ζων" have a meaning besides an active participle?
 
Well, that's all Greek to me, but Google Translate claims it means "Live the life of damage."

LOL. Maybe that's why modern Greece is in the trouble it's in today. :)

Maybe my Greek is a bit rusty, but how is that any different from saying "vive vitam vivens." Does "ζων" have a meaning besides an active participle?

Yes, the meaning is that it's possible to do this in Greek, but not Latin. It's a supplementary participle. There's no such thing as that in Latin. The phrase in Latin you put above would be considered gibberish.
 
Um It's not gibberish given that vivens modifies tu (although it doesn't mean the same thing as the op requested). It's obviously a bit awkward but no more so than "Live life to live" in the first place :p.

So in your Greek translation I assume τον βιον the object of ζη; so does ζιων imply purpose in context?
 
Um It's not gibberish given that vivens modifies tu (although it doesn't mean the same thing as the op requested). It's obviously a bit awkward but no more so than "Live life to live" in the first place :p.

It makes sense to us English speakers, but this usage didn't exist in Classical Latin. To a Roman, it would be either gibberish or redundant.

So in your Greek translation I assume τον βιον the object of ζη; so does ζιων imply purpose in context?

It's "ζων". It's a supplementary participle, so it's supposed to supplement the meaning of a verb (ζη). The exact way it supplements is dependent on context. I will admit that it would've been unusual to use a supplementary participle with ζαω, but it should be understood. I could've also used ζαω as an articulate infinitive and said:

ζη τον βιον τῳ ζην.

The meaning is about the same.
 
I've seen such a usage quite a bit in Latin where it seemed to make plenty of sense. However, now that I think of it those were all in the Vulgate, so they might just represent an attempt at a verbatim translation of the original Koine Greek epistles.
 
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