[BTS] Need to find some bits of strategy/tactics

Long try

Chieftain
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Feb 22, 2019
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Back in the old forum, about a decade ago, I read quite a lot of neat tricks and plays that are really smart. I managed to apply some, others I've forgotten. To prepare for my return to Civ4, I want to revisit them, especially those that I wasn't able to implement. Here are a few I still remember (assuming 'normal' settings):
  • Slavery is very effective if city size is 6 or less. 7-9 is not optimal, 10+ is not worth the effort. Should let the population grows to 1 unhappy face and whip 2-3 pop.
  • Marathon speed favors wars because of cheap units. Conversely, Quick speed (very) slightly favor Spiritual trait because anarchy hurts, and also it allows you to jump between civics to please AIs.
  • The globe theater combines effectively with Nationalism and some xp-giving civics to produce a "draft city". In the best case scenario, a size-6 will get drafted every turn and grow back.
  • If some AI says "We're having too much on our hands" while asking them to war on someone, then better check the relations carefully to see if yourself are the target or not.
  • A very primitive rule of thumb for calculating the amount of units needed to attack a city is 2(x+1), with x being the number defending. 2x to wipe out resistance, 1 to account for surprises, and 1 archer/longbow to keep the prize.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, or help me with a link that discussed the above. Now to the ones I only have a vague idea and want your advice:
  • The tech popping/bee-lining tactic. I always confuse which important techs are discovered by which great person, or how to pull of the Oracle bomb for the most bang. Could you tell me 3-4 of the most popular/applicable tech shots that great players use?
  • Diplomacy strategy in general. How to build good relationships, and with whom? How to undercut and manipulate them on a global scale? I remember reading about even gifting a city to gain favor, which was unimaginable for me.
  • On the same vein, about money extortion. Something about giving AI gold per turn in an increment of 2, to increase our income through resource selling and then cancel the gpt flow, but exactly how to pull it off, I can't recall with accuracy.
Again, links are very appreciated in addition to discussion.
 
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Slavery: those are basic guidelines (like have 1.5 workers / city). Whipping can be correct at any size (unless cities are really huge) :)
Example..your shiny capital wants an observatory (at which point it's ofc much bigger than size 6 already), and runs out of good tiles anyways.
Why not lose 2 pop (Bur. helps) instead of working some irrelevant tiles.

Popular bulbs:
* Philo for Pacifism, can also distract AIs from teching towards Lib. Or helps with catching up in tech trades.
* Education (Lib again or unlocks Gunpowder)
* Astro (very expensive cos there's no 20% discount), huge benefit in isolated situations.
* Maths for early rush chopping or faster Construction, even while it costs only 25% of the GS bulb power.

Easy diplo points: trading resources & opening borders.
Ignore AI demands to stop trading with X, they never start plotting if you say nope.
If all others hate 1 AI it may ofc be wise.
City gifts give permanent +4 "fair trade", but you can also get that by being generous with tech trades. Or if you gift them valuable strategic resources (Iron works very fast).
Some AIs are programmed to never plot on someone they are pleased with (~50% of them i think), so good diplo pays off if you sit next to let's say unit spamming Mehmed :)

"Money extortion" is marked as exploit iirc.
 
Why not lose 2 pop (Bur. helps) instead of working some irrelevant tiles.
Makes sense! What is Bur, BTW? :crazyeye:
Philo for Pacifism, can also distract AIs from teching towards Lib.
Woah, this is the 1st time I read about the ability to direct AI's research target! Could you elaborate? Also, were you referring to Philo as a Oracle bulb? I'm ashamed to admit that idk which GP bulbs Philo, haha.
Ignore AI demands to stop trading with X, they never start plotting if you say nope.
Cool. I never knew that. If I have open borders with A, who everyone hates, will that count as "You traded with our worst enemy"?
Or if you gift them valuable strategic resources (Iron works very fast).
I kinda did that in my 1st recent game, giving Genghis horse to pummel Lincoln... but I did that as a trade, for 2 other resources. Won't count, right?
good diplo pays off if you sit next to let's say unit spamming Mehmed :)
I think the very general quasi-rule is to be just OK to your neighbor(s) but invest in the relationship with people 1 civ away (neighbor's neighbor). If A & B are our neighbors while C, D & E are further on the same landmass, then at some points, we'd have to invade A and/or B to materialize our shot at winning. Of course situations vary, and perhaps the biggest factor in Civ4 diplomacy is a leader's peacefulness vs warmongering. But what do you think?
"Money extortion" is marked as exploit iirc.
Nice to know. But to be fair, it's not easy either. I tried gifting somebody 2 & 2 & 2gpt, his flow increased from 6 to 8 and then... 0. If done incorrectly, it can hurt more than help, lol.
 
Helper cities seems to be way to go for a Bureau capital. Expand to 3 cities Where a capital has 2-3 corn or food. Settle city 3 tiles away and try to run 10 cottages between the 3 cities by 1000bc. Early cottages really help with science.
Slavery is important but chops for workers/settlers early game is important.
Skipping techs early on is key. Don't delay BW/pottery too long. Make sure you have enough workers to abuse cottages when you do have pottery.
Granary is likely the most important building in game. Don't delay it!
I still enjoy early rushes for fun. This game is all about building up a strong economy and grabbing land. Land later on means power.
 
Helper cities seems to be way to go for a Bureau capital. Expand to 3 cities Where a capital has 2-3 corn or food. Settle city 3 tiles away and try to run 10 cottages between the 3 cities by 1000bc. Early cottages really help with science.
I think this one is pretty situational. Not to mention some people like to run specialists. Is there any definitive, conclusive discussion of which is better?
Skipping techs early on is key.
If a land is quite diverse and requires many tile techs, would you sacrifice (delay) some resources to rush the competitive techs? I was torn by this question more than once.
 
Bur = Bureaucracy, one of the best Civics in many games :)
+50% :hammers: makes whips 45:hammers: per population.

All popular bulbs are done with Great Scientists.
Engineers can be interesting for Machinery & Engineering but it's much rarer.
Great Merchants should usually go on trade missions for piles of :gold:.

We cannot really direct AIs research, but techs that found a religion are often ignored by them once that Reli has gone.
So if you are first to Philo you might have more time for Liberalism later (which can pay off by getting a bigger free tech).

Open borders will trigger "stop trading with X" requests, yup.
They give +2 after 50 turns so it's a balance between keeping them open and "you refused to stop trading with our worst enemy".

Resources are valued in gold per turn.
AIs consider Iron to be worth ~100gpt, here you can take every normal resource they have in return and still build up diplo points.
Horse and copper are only worth ~30gpt so if you take 2 other resis that won't give much fair trade diplo :)

I think that one of the most important diplo mechanics is reaching friendly.
Friendly AIs will trade all techs (they now have become Mansa Musa :D).
And direct neighbors with standing armies in border cities towards you are ofc uncomfy..very good to reach pleased there.
But there's no difference between pleased status at +3 or +6 relations, so no need for being too generous either.
 
Specialists for golden ages. Or to get a specialist to get a golden age. Overall running specialists slows city growth. So not great really. If you have a river/flood plains are great for bureau capital. Standard play for me unless hammer capital.

Skipping resources pends on map. Sometimes AH resources can be mined. At times bronze working hammers can hugely improve game. Same for earlier cottages in capital. At higher levels like deity this is standard play.
 
Thank you, very illuminating. Fippy's post is fantastic.
  • Aside from the obvious bulbing targets mentioned earlier, what are some of the most important techs? And what are some techs that are usually taken from trading with / stealing from AI?
  • Is espionage worthwhile? Could you point me to the winning strategy with it - something to do with culture, but I can't recall at all.
  • At around which time will barbsmen appear, and when will they enter border? At highest difficulties, is the "No barbs" option helpful or harmful, in general? I guess AI building up big armies without a source to spend them on could be dangerous as we might become the target instead?
  • I also want to find a post explaining the map scripts. For example, what does the "balanced" script's landmass look like, or is it islands...?
 
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Much depends on difficulty level for your question, if AIs tech fast Alpha, Monarchy and Iron Working are very common to trade for.
On deity one very popular play is going for Aesthetics while bringing in all above via trade. On Immortal that can work as well..while Emp & lower it's getting more unlikely to get Monarchy in time.

Mona and Alpha are on a short list of techs that AIs always offer for trade, no matter how many other AIs already know them.
Others are Printing Press, Mono and i think AH. Maybe more that i forget atm :)

Espionage slider isn't worthwhile if you are not going into 100% steal mode. Either full or nothing imo.
You can mission spread your culture into an AI city and then capture it, for an unconventional legendary city.

No barbs makes deity much easier, they are what's most feared with (too) much open land around you.
Usually barbs enter borders when all AIs / players combined reached an average of 3 cities (and they start with 2 on deity..so might attack at turn ~35 already).
 
what are some of the most important techs?
I think the most important techs in the game are BW and pottery. Maybe alphabet and monarchy too, but especially the latter is situational, depending on the availability of :)-resources.

Why BW and pottery? BW because of both chopping and whipping. They change the game as you suddenly have access to high amounts of fast :hammers:. Pottery because of both granary and cottages.
 
while Emp & lower it's getting more unlikely to get Monarchy in time.
Eh.. in time for what - I guess Hereditary Rule? And will the 2 extra units always be worthy of 1 more pop (in ADVCiv)?

You can mission spread your culture into an AI city and then capture it, for an unconventional legendary city.
I see... veeery interesting. Is this method reliable? I guess a bigger empire through conquest is always good because it opens many winning conditions, but on large & huge maps this usual route can be really tiresome. OTOH, even if we have 2 unconven legendary cities already, AI still might not be aware of the potential 3rd, and reaching victory has no additional difficulty. So the espionage cultural might be suitable for those who have a small land... or are lazy :) Can someone lead me with a link to the how-to of this method?

Also, I'd love to know the tile count of different map sizes, and AI behavior regarding city-blocking strategy!
 
Slavery is very effective if city size is 6 or less. 7-9 is not optimal, 10+ is not worth the effort. Should let the population grows to 1 unhappy face and whip 2-3 pop.
Size of the city is largely unimportant in the overall scheme of things. More important is the tradeoff of how many hammers you are getting for the amount of pop whipped, how much time it saves, and the food income of the city (a very food rich city can get away with whipping more often easily, for instance.). Typically don't whip large cities (~10+) because by the phase of the game you are growing to that size, you aren't wanting to whip anymore whether because you don't need to, are wanting to work cottages, or are banking pop for later rapid whips...so they grow.
Marathon speed favors wars because of cheap units. Conversely, Quick speed (very) slightly favor Spiritual trait because anarchy hurts, and also it allows you to jump between civics to please AIs.
I never really thought of that, but I guess you do get more mileage out of SPI in Quick when you put it that way. Still doesn't make it great IMO.
A very primitive rule of thumb for calculating the amount of units needed to attack a city is 2(x+1), with x being the number defending. 2x to wipe out resistance, 1 to account for surprises, and 1 archer/longbow to keep the prize.
It's far more complex depending on your unit comp, tech disparity, even things like city location (on a hill, etc). You need more units if you are going to brute force with axes yes...but not nearly as much if going treb+mace, even less if doing cannon+anything. You need less units if you are stacking 2movers to hit weak locations rapidly, or ahead by two eras of military etc. There are many tricks to maniuplate where and how the AI defends or moves its stack, even very early or very late in the game etc. You can choose where to hit as the aggressor as opposed to defending. It goes on and on.
The tech popping/bee-lining tactic. I always confuse which important techs are discovered by which great person, or how to pull of the Oracle bomb for the most bang. Could you tell me 3-4 of the most popular/applicable tech shots that great players use?
Great Scientists for Philosophy, Education, Liberalism, Optics, Astro. Sometimes earlier or later techs like Math, Engineering (can also use a GE for that), Machinery, SciMeth, Chemistry.

Liberalism for Nationalism or Military Traditon for Cuir/Cav attacks. If extremely dominant can use it for Communism :D

Oracle was typically used for fast Code of Laws IIRC. Maybe Monarchy? I don't ever use it and I rarely see the good players actually use except when showing off :p
Diplomacy strategy in general. How to build good relationships, and with whom? How to undercut and manipulate them on a global scale? I remember reading about even gifting a city to gain favor, which was unimaginable for me.
City gifting is a very situational thing where to want to prevent an issue -- the AI killing you early. Much more of a problem with aggressive AIs that declare at Pleased. It's a somewhat extreme measure but might be more or less necessary in that situation. It's used because it very rapidly progresses the AI's attitude toward reaching Friendly, where you are 100% safe. It can also be used to gain Friendly for trading options, as they always trade techs at Friendly unless building the wonder unlocked by it.

Everyone has a different feel for general diplo. But overall, keep your neighbor(s) happier, make a few strong friends rather than try to please everyone, try not to alienate trade partners (should almost NEVER agree to strop trading, the AI you stop with will hate you for like, forever)

Easiest way to undermine the AI through diplo is bribe them into wars to slow them, or beg peace treaties from them at inopportune times so they CAN'T attack you when they try to. War bribing can backfire if you pick an uneven matchup wisely, sometimes it's better to let well enough alone and other times they will do the aggression all on their own anyway.
On the same vein, about money extortion. Something about giving AI gold per turn in an increment of 2, to increase our income through resource selling and then cancel the gpt flow, but exactly how to pull it off, I can't recall with accuracy.
It's an exploit, but it's something along the lines of trading them a resources for a price of GPT, in 10 turns they should have either developed their empire more or adjusted their sliders to have more GPT again, so you cancel and re-trade for a higher amount. It's very micromanagement intensive, requires a good amount of spare resources if you want to even really profit off of it (I beleive part of it is actually "subsidizing" their GPT by trading your own to them) and doesn't seem like it does much of anything to the higher difficulty AIs anyway (Deity AIs routinely run +GPT even at 100% slider by the mid-game or so and just stockpile hundreds, thousands of gold over time).
 
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