Negotiations with KISS

[Robi D]

HBR = 5, Masonry = 4. Again that's us giving up a point to the leaders of the game. We already did that in the previous trade. Again, HBR has high trade value, Masonry less, as TNT already has it.

Math+Curr = 22, Repu = 26. That's them giving up 4 points. Difference: 3 points (or 2, if you want to count the earlier one). Three points is worth 90 gold, we could offer a percentage of that (at most 50%) to make up the difference.

Are they doing slow research on Republic, or fast? If it's slow (50 turns), then we don't need to hurry with currency, and can perhaps just as well research republic ourselves.

MapMaking for Lit is another deal where we give up 2 points....
Team KISS is moving to an unbeatable position I'm afraid (if they don't have already). We shouldn't help them too much, and making deals consistently in their favor isn't a good idea.

I agree that we need to talk with MIA soonish. Our only hope of staying up in the tech race is brokering. Unfortunately MIA is far behind, but maybe we can convince them o do MapMaking or Lit. They already have writing for 2 turns.

If we did do the complete tech trade all the transactions would end up at zero. CoL + Philo + HBR + Math + Curr + MM = 57
WC + IW + CB + Myst + Mason + Rep + Lit= 57

Not that i think that a zero sum is the best for us. This is why we need to deal with MIA too, so we can get ahead of that sum, plus also we need to keep MIA competative because we don't want KISS to easily overrun them, because then they will have an unbeatable position.

As it stands we can take the trade and still be in a good position, but if we can get something going with MIA then we can make this offer work more in our favour. I think the key to putting ourselves in a winning position is to stay flexable in our approach by keeping all our options open with the other teams.

 

[zyxy]

If we did do the complete tech trade all the transactions would end up at zero. CoL + Philo + HBR + Math + Curr + MM = 57
WC + IW + CB + Myst + Mason + Rep + Lit= 57

True. But then we need to make sure that 1 research credit is included with the HBR <-> Masonry deal. We can't very well renegotiate for it after the deal is done, and likewise we may not get a credit for the past deal (CoL and Philo).

Also, it is likely that MIA will do either MM or Lit. I agree that a chat with MIA would be good, we want to know about future trading options - that is, we want to know what they are researching, and perhaps strike a deal for it now, before KISS does (we can't be sure that they don't trade).
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[Robi D]

True. But then we need to make sure that 1 research credit is included with the HBR <-> Masonry deal. We can't very well renegotiate for it after the deal is done, and likewise we may not get a credit for the past deal (CoL and Philo).

Also, it is likely that MIA will do either MM or Lit. I agree that a chat with MIA would be good, we want to know about future trading options - that is, we want to know what they are researching, and perhaps strike a deal for it now, before KISS does (we can't be sure that they don't trade).

Whether they base it on that or not, thats what im working on, since i wouldn't be expecting futher deal after this one. Also the HBR-Mason swap is part of the one deal with Rep-Math/Curr. If they want gold instead of a futher tech swap, i would be happy with that especially if we can get deal with MIA because that puts us ahead.

 

[Robi D]

Just got this PM from KISS. Now i'm confused, because how could MIA get Philo and CoL. Surely its not possible that they got them both from goody huts?

Robi,

It seems we've hit a roadblock. I don't know if it's civ4 or what but TNT is not responding to us now. I wonder if they've caught on that we are talking to you or something.

We've tried to talk to MIA but I'm not sure if they're backing off trading it due to a pyramid build.

Sorry but I don't think we can get masonry for you.
We should talk again soon.

Whomp

 

[Nobody]

Hey iv been having a chat with Kiss, Whomp and some of his buddys.

anyway i wont post the whole thing since most of it was joking and being silly. What really was discussed was me asking them when they are declaring war on TnT, and tell them not to count us out.

"The War of Northern Agression will end when the Tnts love their children more than they hate us."

is what i told them, anyway then it moved to republic, which they will have soon. anyway they want a offer. what should we give? if we want to do it?

 

[Robi D]

There's a couple of ways we can go about the trade,

One is Mason+Math+Curr for republic however they will finish Rep before we could finish curr.

Another opotion would be Mason+HBR+Math+Lit which we will have ready by the time they finish rep.

Also on our part it depends if we want to do currency next or not as to what would be preferable. It would be good to have Rep even though i don't think we will be able to use it due to our large military. Maybe we should put it to a vote.

 

[Nobody]

Hey i just had a talk with Whomp from Kiss.

Just said a couple of little things about our war not much.
Talked about tech trades, We thought we would bring this back to the people, Our Poly and Lit for their Republic. Also we talked about a freindship pact between us.

 

[Robi D]

That would be a good deal. I'm a little surprised they didn't ask for masonry as well, but if there happy with just poly and lit then i wont complain

 

[Nobody]

What about a Freindship pact between our two nations? What would we want in it, 30 turns of guranteed peace, plus we are not informed of the ending. No supporting of our enemys during wars?

 

[Robi D]

I wouldn't worry about the set limits to guarantees of peace. I don't think they would want to attack us anyway given the current state of the game. Firstly they are in the lead atm and secondly there is evidence that TNT and MIA are forming a close relationship, so one way or another its already in their best interests to be on good terms with us. As far as what to put in the friendship pact, i would be against putting in any major binding issue in there as we have enough problems of our own without being obliged to get involved in any future conficts they might have. The terms i would put in there are;

-continued trading on a fair basis
-cooperation in matters of mutual interest
-open trading of information on other teams
-not assisting enemies in times of confict (this should not include tech trades as they can be mutually benifical)

That in my opinion that should be as far as it extends. Remember were all trying to win the game so at some stage we might get into a conflict with them.

 

[Nobody]

ive been talking to them its hard to come to an agreement, they wont do that deal now they want Horseback ridding, poly, Lit, +next tech for their republic. Is it worth it??

also the agreement seems popular i had an idea that we have a mutual protection clause, basicly if we get involved in a war the other remain neutral, But if a team gets involved in a war with 2 teams then we will protect each other (like the Anglo-japense treaty) this would protect us from MIA, they seemed keen on this.

 

[Robi D]

Republic's value is 28
Horseback Riding(5) + Literature(10) + Polytheism(12) =27

Now the values of the remaining techs which would be the + next tech are
Map Making(12), Currency(16), Construction(20) and Monarchy(24).

So their proposal is by far weighed in their favour. If they are willing to drop the + next tech then i think the deal is worth considering, otherwise i would say no thanks.

Also Republic is also not an important tech for us at the moment as it would be impossible to switch our government to republic in our current situation.
Currently we have 38 units on the ground. Now if we were in a Republic now maintainence for these units would cost us 62g instead of the current 10g, so any increased tile production would be lost in paying for the units, plus there would be the issue of war wariness to contend with on top of that.

 

[Nobody]

I just had a big talk with Tummby the first thing she asked was if Doughtnuts and TnT want to make apeace and attack MIA. I said it was unlikely we could make peace, then we spoke about our war and the cold war going on over there.

Also she said we might want to do a deal where they check out TnT citys and then send us the info. I don't know if it is legal or not.

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

Which nation has the most power/culture/victory points?
im hoping its KISS. (Besides us, lol)

 

[Robi D]

KISS leads on the victory points, everyones even on culture (no ones built anything) and power is fairly even with tnt and us leading the way due to our large militaries.

 

[xyourxmomxcorex]

We have a larger army than TNT, right?
Several Questions:
What is the histograph show about power with MIA? How are the realation between MIA and KISS? A war there would be benifical to us.

 

[Robi D]

I had a chat with whomp today. It was interesting to say the least. While we both have to check with our respective teams for final approval, this is the proposition as it stands.

They will give us Construction and Currency
In return we give them Monarchy and 80 gold

As a guide the relative tech values are, Const=20, Curr=16, Mon=24

As i said this needs to be approved by both sides. Further more Whomp has suggested full co-ordination between our respective militaries. This would me they would join us in the fight with TNT and in return we would join them in a fight with MIA, thus if all went to plan we would be the final two teams in the game.

This leaves us in an interesting position as TNT is asking for peace with us, and we can still haggle the terms with them, or we go all out and finish them off with KISS assistance before assisting KISS with MIA.

Also there is one more thing to consider and that is at the moment we are the greatest military power in the game, even though KISS and MIA are ahead of us in size and technology, we hold an important advantage in this respect, this i also believe is our best option for a win as it would take a while to regear our efforts to expand and advance to a point where we would catch up to them, therefore my feeling is to try to cut a deal with KISS. This is an important decesion and one where i would like everyone to voice there opinion

 

[DaveShack]

A little help here, where do we stand on tech? Would that slingshot us into the Middle Ages?

If we ally against TNT, we need to specify a division of the spoils. If KISS are allowed to keep the cities, which are already close to theirs, then we stand to end up 2nd place at best.

 

[Robi D]

A little help here, where do we stand on tech? Would that slingshot us into the Middle Ages?

If we ally against TNT, we need to specify a division of the spoils. If KISS are allowed to keep the cities, which are already close to theirs, then we stand to end up 2nd place at best.

Getting Currency and Construction would get us to the middle ages.

If KISS were to build/capture cities on our continent then i would expect we would have the same rights in the war with MIA.

 

[DaveShack]

Thanks for the update.

The concern is that if KISS are ready to land troops on TNT then they would get their offshore cities faster than we would, which would accellerate the gap between us.