Neo-Nazi wins Primary for GOP in Illinois 3rd congressional district

That's literally the entire game. It's opposition to civil rights dressed up in the language of freedom.

As I've remarked before, it's kind of amazing that the straw version of postmodernism constructed by the likes of Jordan Peterson is actually to be found on the right, where the most devoted defenders of hierarchy and entrenched power and privilege portray themselves as mavericks, rebels, and iconoclasts.
 
That's literally the entire game. It's opposition to civil rights dressed up in the language of freedom.

The perpetrators of Jim Crow banned freedom of association too

As I've remarked before, it's kind of amazing that the straw version of postmodernism constructed by the likes of Jordan Peterson is actually to be found on the right, where the most devoted defenders of hierarchy and entrenched power and privilege portray themselves as mavericks, rebels, and iconoclasts.

Well, they do tend to be the 1%... Plenty of rebellions in human history, how many succeeded without creating a new hierarchy and entrenched power?
 
As I've remarked before, it's kind of amazing that the straw version of postmodernism constructed by the likes of Jordan Peterson is actually to be found on the right, where the most devoted defenders of hierarchy and entrenched power and privilege portray themselves as mavericks, rebels, and iconoclasts.

Mavericks, rebels, and iconoclasts fighting for the proletariat, no less.

It's a massive, massive failure of communication by nominally liberal people that things have gotten to where they are. It's possible that we've fallen so far down the black hole that is Republican governance that the colossal con job is self-evident, but I really can't say with any confidence.
 
It's a massive, massive failure of communication by nominally liberal people that things have gotten to where they are.

I disagree that it represents a "failure" by liberals. Not that liberals haven't failed plenty, but it isn't really a failure on their part to not have large amounts of money to invest in scientific public relations. That is what the right did starting in the mid-20th century, to roll back the gains made by the labor movement and then by the civil rights, feminist, etc. movements, and liberals haven't done anything like that because that isn't the kind of thing liberals do. Most liberals do not even think in the terms of public relations, and that is why they consistently lose the messaging wars.
 
That's literally the entire game. It's opposition to civil rights dressed up in the language of freedom.

No, I think it's the opposite. Their freedom heuristic conflicts with some of the tools used to improve civil rights. Their major cognitive error is that you need a certain threshold of basic equality before you can drastically increase freedoms. They would prefer to increase the freedoms before equality is reached, and hope that equality shakes out as a result. They're just wrong.
 
If 'we' were wrong, why was Jim Crow enforced?

You guys are looking at slavery and its aftermath to condemn freedom of association when slavery and Jim Crow denied freedom of association too.
 
It takes effort to overcome a cultural evil. Like, it actually does. It sucks that people have trouble discriminating against customers, but the downside of that freedom was the continuation of a cultural evil.

It also sucks that you legally have to drive on the right side of the road. But society is worse if we don't have that law
 
The cultural evil was the law of the land enforced by people who didn't believe in the freedom of association, it was not the result of a libertarianesque free market... If you own the road you can drive on whatever side you want, if the state owns the road then the state decides.
 
The cultural evil was the law of the land enforced by people who didn't believe in the freedom of association, it was not the result of a libertarianesque free market... If you own the road you can drive on whatever side you want, if the state owns the road then the state decides.

This works out really well for libertarians that own their neighbors.
 
This has not been my experience. Most of the (modern American) libertarian intellectual patron saints, like Ludwig von Mises, Ayn Rand, and Murray Rothbard, were quite open racists and sexists. And even the ones who aren't nationalists tend to believe in human inequality, demarcated by something like IQ rather than race or culture. After all, the successful among us are simply our betters, and attempts to enforce any kind of social equality are tyrannical because try as we might we just can't make everyone the same. Almost without exception, right-libertarians I've interacted with have had right-wing views about social issues.

Meh. More issues than you might think are relevant to "protecting property." Libertarians have traditionally opposed the civil rights movement, for example, on the basis of protecting the prerogatives of private property owners. They oppose feminism on similar grounds- contracts are sacrosanct, and the state enforcing all this "equal treatment and equal pay" nonsense is a form of tyranny.

This is really the only "new" thing about the modern American libertarian movement. It's perfectly in keeping with the long right-wing political tradition stretching back the French Revolution - what it adds is the insistence that there is something insurgent, something rebellious, about what is essentially a defense of power and privilege.

I agree overall - I'm just trying to explain what goes on in the confused mind of a true-believer libertarian. I find it a pretty terrible ideology too for much the same reason. Embarrassingly, I went through a phase of about a year and a half in college of being a libertarian, so I'm describing the way I and my libertarian friends thought at that time.

The ones I've met were all liberal on issues related to civil liberties, although of course civil liberties don't include the liberty of not starving or being homeless, and depriving people of necessities doesn't fit in their narrow definition of violence. I've encountered mostly open-border types as well, although I don't know if they're the majority. Obviously they favor removing prohibitions and restrictions on everything, economic or social.

Most that I've met have thought that racism/sexism/etc. were bad, but that the free market will take care of any economic effects over time because it is economically irrational to discriminate based on something other than their qualities as an employee, and some believe that changing social norms are sufficient to avoid racism elsewhere (as well as in the economy). They oppose anti-discrimination laws, affirmative action, and the like because of property fundamentalism, but the free market argument is how they hand-wave issues of discrimination away. They tend to personally disagree with the racism and sexism of Rand, Rothbard, et al. but think it just had to do with the times.

They tend to believe in some sort of "meritocracy" where "merit" is measured by how valuable you are to the market. Of course many if not most factors in "merit" are not controllable by the person being valued - IQ being a classic example, as is the social class you're born in, any discrimination you've faced, illnesses (mental or physical), etc. Unsurprisingly they are mostly white males with high IQs and middle-to-upper class backgrounds, who have no idea what it's like to be considered economically useless.

Increasingly, I am seeing the two-spectrum model for politics as actually worse than a single-spectrum model. Economic and social issues can't be so readily separated. And frequently economic issues are simply a proxy or cipher for how someone believes society should work. As an example, the early classical liberals were 'left-wing' in the sense that they wanted free markets because they believed free markets would lead to social equality. Modern free-marketers tend to be right-wing because they believe free markets give proper scope to what they see as natural inequalities between people, whereas "government tyranny" always results from attempts to make equal what can never truly be equal. Free-market politics are as often about reinforcing social inequalities of various kinds as they are about free markets for their own sake.
It's certainly true that economic and social issues are two aspects of hierarchy in society, and they can't be separated entirely. But I do think the differences between, say, Chavez and Corbyn are important, as are those between Gary Johnson and Richard Spencer. My view is that there are a number of different political spectra in addition to the two on the Political Compass, e.g. militarist vs pacifist, or elitist vs populist. All political spectra are interrelated, but that doesn't mean it's useless to think of multiple ones.

Still though, I certainly agree that they do want a hierarchy (one they would do well in, moreover) and this puts them on the right in any 1D model.

There are some who want to see social inequalities widened, but there are a lot of others who believe that systems (almost) always just work better if privately run, and that a reasonably just society can be created if the government stepped out of the way and let private enterprise handle everything. It's a really comforting delusion because it says that humans are fundamentally so good that, left to their own devices without attempting to control very much, they will naturally help each other out including through private philanthropy and mutual aid, building a desirable and mostly just society. Of course it's not true, and it's mostly possible to hold such beliefs only if you're very sheltered from the world. But there are true believers who think that - I was one.

The other thing that's seductive about it is that the conclusions (mostly) follow logically from the premises - it's a self-contained and seems internally consistent when you're inside it. There's a lot of Homo economicus thinking, where you believe humans are at worst boundedly rational actors. It seems to be popular among STEM majors because they mistake logical elegance for a good model of reality. Uncommonly for libertarians but commonly for STEM libertarians, I always threw in a couple of taxes to deal with problems like pollution/global warming, but other than a couple of kludges like that, there didn't seem to be much within the ideology that didn't have a ready answer.

The other, less-than-reasonable things that got me to fall for it are that I have a strong contrarian streak (triggered in a college environment, de-triggered once I left) and I tended to believe that people who get emotional when they argue aren't arguing rationally. The libertarians I talked with were all rational-sounding, and of course they were disproportionately STEM while the leftists were disproportionately majoring in humanities and social sciences. Also, I simply found left-wing activists annoying. A pretty large chunk of libertarians - especially the Reason magazine set - seem to have "converted" for many of the same reasons.
 
In a very strict economic sense, you could think of fascists as being roughly centrist towards its favored group of people. But "right-wing" is usually not used in a strict economic sense. Historically, it means support of social hierarchy - originally support for monarchs and the aristocracy in Europe, and then moving from that to support for the newer powerful classes (e.g. industrialists) and then to nationalist movements. In that sense fascism is very much right-wing.

It is kind of confusing that (American-style) libertarians and fascists are both described as right-wing though. Libertarians do implicitly promote a hierarchy by supporting a system that leads to entrenched inequality, but obviously it's a very different system from fascism. That's just one of the problems with the left-right scheme. Often I'll say "economically right/left" to talk about economic policy specifically, but I wish there were an unambiguous shorthand for it.


The problem here is that the term 'libertarian' is not actually useful. It is not, if it ever was, a descriptive term which gives you info concerning what the political views of the person claiming to be a libertarian has.

'Libertarian' is not a point on a spectrum. It's a spectrum in and of itself. And that spectrum covers a huge swath of ground. So all of those things are true within it, even though many of them badly contradict other things within it. But the real problem is that an awful lot of what chooses to self-describe as 'libertarian' really has no connection to any part of libertarian thinking, on any part of the spectrum. 'Libertarian' on that end only means 'I don't want government to do things which protect other people from the things I want to do.' Ayn Rand never considered herself a libertarian. And Randian Objectivism is not part of the libertarian spectrum. Yet it is very commonly conflated with being part of it by many who call themselves libertarian today. Rand is all about the dominance of the uberman. There is no place for liberty within it. The ubermen get liberty. Everyone else had damned well better do what they are told, and shut up about it. The von Mises Austrian economics crowd is actually just as bad. They are conflated with libertarian because they are anti-government. But they are only anti-some-government. They are for the government which protects the elite. They are opposed to any government which aids those not the elite. Austrian economics is not a philosophy of liberty, it is a philosophy of privilege. It is of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite. The aristocrats get liberty. Everyone else had damned well better do what they are told, and shut up about it. The Confederates also get conflated with libertarian. But everything is actually just about protecting the slave owner, and the institution of slavery. The slavers get liberty. Everyone else had damned well better do what they are told, and shut up about it.

What's important is that most of what calls itself libertarian has no use for liberty at all. And because of this libertarian is no longer a useful term. And it should not be used. For all it tells you is that the user is against something that government does. And most of what they are opposed to is government protecting the liberty, property, opportunity, of those who are not of the elite. So a libertarian can be a fascist. Even a Nazi. Because first thing is first: Tear down the government which protects the liberty of others. Only after that which protects liberty is in ruins is the new structure of tyranny constructed.
 
The problem here is that the term 'libertarian' is not actually useful. It is not, if it ever was, a descriptive term which gives you info concerning what the political views of the person claiming to be a libertarian has.

'Libertarian' is not a point on a spectrum. It's a spectrum in and of itself. And that spectrum covers a huge swath of ground. So all of those things are true within it, even though many of them badly contradict other things within it. But the real problem is that an awful lot of what chooses to self-describe as 'libertarian' really has no connection to any part of libertarian thinking, on any part of the spectrum. 'Libertarian' on that end only means 'I don't want government to do things which protect other people from the things I want to do.' Ayn Rand never considered herself a libertarian. And Randian Objectivism is not part of the libertarian spectrum. Yet it is very commonly conflated with being part of it by many who call themselves libertarian today. Rand is all about the dominance of the uberman. There is no place for liberty within it. The ubermen get liberty. Everyone else had damned well better do what they are told, and shut up about it. The von Mises Austrian economics crowd is actually just as bad. They are conflated with libertarian because they are anti-government. But they are only anti-some-government. They are for the government which protects the elite. They are opposed to any government which aids those not the elite. Austrian economics is not a philosophy of liberty, it is a philosophy of privilege. It is of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite. The aristocrats get liberty. Everyone else had damned well better do what they are told, and shut up about it. The Confederates also get conflated with libertarian. But everything is actually just about protecting the slave owner, and the institution of slavery. The slavers get liberty. Everyone else had damned well better do what they are told, and shut up about it.

What's important is that most of what calls itself libertarian has no use for liberty at all. And because of this libertarian is no longer a useful term. And it should not be used. For all it tells you is that the user is against something that government does. And most of what they are opposed to is government protecting the liberty, property, opportunity, of those who are not of the elite. So a libertarian can be a fascist. Even a Nazi. Because first thing is first: Tear down the government which protects the liberty of others. Only after that which protects liberty is in ruins is the new structure of tyranny constructed.

Yeah, there are a pretty large number of people who call themselves libertarian but are really just Republicans with having rules against certain social behaviors. There's a Urban Dictionary definition of libertarian that just says "a Republican with a bong", which definitely describes some so-called libertarians.

While Objectivism and Austrian economics and libertarianism share lots of common ground, they aren't strictly the same thing, although I think someone can reasonably be both at the same time. Rand herself disliked most libertarians and considered herself a conservative, but there's not a whole lot in Rand's writing that is anti-libertarian as e.g. the Libertarian party would define "libertarian". Paleoconservatism is another thing that overlaps quite a bit with libertarianism and often gets conflated with it, but isn't the same thing. But the biggest thing behind the confusion is that Republicans do a good job of weaponizing libertarian beliefs to support crony capitalism - that's basically the whole reason the Cato Institute exists.
 
It's certainly true that economic and social issues are two aspects of hierarchy in society, and they can't be separated entirely. But I do think the differences between, say, Chavez and Corbyn are important, as are those between Gary Johnson and Richard Spencer. My view is that there are a number of different political spectra in addition to the two on the Political Compass, e.g. militarist vs pacifist, or elitist vs populist. All political spectra are interrelated, but that doesn't mean it's useless to think of multiple ones.

Oh, I surely agree with this. I was mainly referring to the specific case of the two-spectrum political compass, and how lots of people seem to think having two spectra puts your analysis on a much higher level of sophistication than one spectrum.

The ones I've met were all liberal on issues related to civil liberties, although of course civil liberties don't include the liberty of not starving or being homeless, and depriving people of necessities doesn't fit in their narrow definition of violence. I've encountered mostly open-border types as well, although I don't know if they're the majority. Obviously they favor removing prohibitions and restrictions on everything, economic or social.

Yeah, I agree that they're mostly "liberal" when it comes to social issues. The issue there is that fascism is kind of incipient in society until some sort of crisis, and at that point of crisis, when libertarians see property being threatened, I'm absolutely convinced that they will bring out the jackboots, to reuse my own phrase. I mean, it's not like we don't have test-cases for this. A lot of people who are propertarians (which I think is a more accurate term than "libertarian" for the US libertarians) had their views formed during the "chaos" of the 60s and explicitly in reaction against that "chaos." A prime example of this phenomenon being James Buchanan, who basically sided with authority against protesters in every case where the issue came up, but also came up with "public choice theory" purporting to explain the economic behavior of government (this is the origin of the "democracy is just politicans buying votes with free stuff taken from the producers" argument you see taken gospel by the right and increasingly by what passes for the left in the US, Bill Clinton being a prime example of what happens when public choice theory is taken as common sense by people who are actually responsible for governing).

James Buchanan's importance to modern Koch-thought should not be underestimated, and it literally cannot be emphasized enough that his theories - one of which was for Virginia to abolish its public school system and switch to vouchers in order to circumvent the court-ordered racial integration of the public school system - were authoritarian from the get-go. His intellectual forebear was John Calhoun, the notorious pro-slavery Senator from the 19th century- who was referred to as the "Marx of the master class" because he basically came up with the theory that government transfer payments are a form of "exploitation" of the rich to the extent that they redistribute wealth downward.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, I think we mainly agree. I think libertarians tend to appear to support civil liberties because many of the goals of the conservative movement, for all we talk about how the left won the culture wars, have been fulfilled: for all the progress on social issues I think we can agree that genuine threats to the rule of capital are thin on the ground in the US today.

The other thing that's seductive about it is that the conclusions (mostly) follow logically from the premises - it's a self-contained and seems internally consistent when you're inside it.

Well of course, but this is true of any number of other ideologies from Nazism to outright cults. It's really a mark against, as I'm sure you agree.

The problem here is that the term 'libertarian' is not actually useful. It is not, if it ever was, a descriptive term which gives you info concerning what the political views of the person claiming to be a libertarian has.

Outside the US, libertarianism generally means something pretty consistent: left-liberalism ranging out to various leftist forms of anarchism. People who call themselves libertarians in the US would just be "liberals" outside the US, where "liberals" are typically right-of-center.
 
Democrats practiced slavery, not libertarians
I notice a lot of modern Republican ideologues like to play on the illusion that the two main U.S. parties have had the same platform ideology (or anywhere near it) since their foundations in 1828 (for the Democrats) and 1854 (for the Republicans), and thus tout the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, and other noble laws as though the modern Republican Party, in it's current mold and mindset, would have remotely passed such laws at all, just because the OLD Republicans did, and, likewise, because Democrats of old supported slavery and, later, Jim Crow, they just think it's fully appropriate with all reasonable backing, to say MODERN must also, by default of party name alone, share those ideals entirely.
 

Apparently. The Democratic party was founded in 1828. You pretty routinely say "the Democrats were the slave owners." Since prior to 1828 there were no Democrats, you are effectively saying that prior to 1828 there were no slaves. Are you suggesting that your continuous refrain about the Democrats being the slave owners has been incorrect all this time?

@Patine...Berzerker isn't a Republican, he just has a blinding hatred for Democrats fueled by his alt-right media sources that makes it appear he is a Republican.
 
I said Democrats practiced slavery....is that wrong?

You said:

This works out really well for libertarians that own their neighbors.

Now that is wrong, libertarians were abolitionists... Democrats owned slaves.

Berzerker isn't a Republican, he just has a blinding hatred for Democrats fueled by his alt-right media sources that makes it appear he is a Republican.

I didn't need any alt-right media source to know what the Democrats have done to people in this country. I get my news from MSNBC, you're the one visiting alt-right sources. I dont like either party, but cfc doesn't have too many Republicans eager to defend the GOP but there's plenty of Democrats looking down their noses at us from their moral high ground. If they insist on accusing libertarians of being fascists (or slave owners) they should back it up instead of piling up more straw.
 
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