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Nerfing the coast is just annoying

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Victoria, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    Both of these comment allude to the real issue. If you have to build something in a coastal city just so it can be on par with an inland city, that's quite a disadvantage. Which is fine, if you are offsetting some advantage you get with coastal settlement. So the problem right now is that there is no advantage for building on the coast, but lots of disadvantages. My memory is getting a bit fuzzy, but I recall that in Civ 1 you wanted to build on coasts and rivers because that was how you got trade. Also, there was no embarking, you had to build a transport to move troops off your continent, which meant you needed a strong coastal city (to build enough ships) to be able to project power overseas at all.

    I am kind of warming up to the idea of better Harbor adjacencies. I feel like the Harbor should also get benefits from City States somehow. Right now it is an odd mix between an Encampment, Industrial Zone and Commercial Hub. Maybe let Harbors and Commercial Hubs still give 2 Trade Routes, then let building a Commercial Hub next to your Harbor give you extra bonuses for Commercial CS envoys and ditto for Industrial Zones and Industrial CS envoys?

    Here's a thought - what if the shipyard was a separate District instead of a building? Unlocked with Apprenticeship, can't be built in a city with an Industrial Zone, gets the same/similar Industrial Zone buildings, gets a major Harbor Adjaceny, and you build it on coast tiles? The water park currently feels pretty nice because it doesn't take up a land tile. Its a little weird if Factories and Power Plants powering your entire city are in your dockyard, but I don't think that's too much of a stretch (shipyards generally have power plants, just not ones powering the entire city), especially if you're using most of that production for navies and such anyway.

    It might also be worth considering that, now that we have Canals, perhaps Harbors should be required to be next to a city. If you want to build ships from an inland city, you can - but not until later in the game, and not without expending resources and land tiles to the project.
     
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  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Rubbish.

    How is any city productive? Think about that carefully.
    If you want to be IRL you will have to build an encampment to make units.
    You will have to build a Harbor to make ships
    You will have to have an IZ to make heavy production.

    IRL this is what happens....
    In the old days a city is built at a river mouth so it can receive foreign goods and ferry them inland. As said already, boats were the only way this sensible occurred in bulk. Not land traders which traded in high value goods rather than bulk goods.
    This city receiving foreign goods was very important, lots of goods could not be gained locally and also your good could not be got in foreign lands so coastal cities were very very key for a hell of a lot of trade. They were the large centres.
    Now if you are a stone mason making monuments or a carpenter making a myriad of buildings, the best skills were where the largest population was, in these coastal cities were the work was. You could say the larger the city the more productive it was because the requirements were needed there.

    What is it you produce in this game? Did it need a carpenter or stonemason or a specialised ‘district’. All happen where large populations were and this was where the work was, where there was a lot of trade.

    The game is not RL. Coastal cities do not have the ability to create the population they really did have, nor the production from the population they should have.

    A city should be basing its food on its land AND its trade. It should be basing its production on its population with districts boosting all of these things. I really do not understand how you can make galleys without a harbour. A Harbor should be the first thing a coastal city builds which then attracts housing and gold and extra production for ships.

    Then you are getting near real life. Production should be based on a combination of mines, wood and population.

    This game is about being playable and coastal cities are not very playable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  3. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    So? You still get gold and merchant points.
     
  4. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Lack of mines and lumber mills in coastal cities could be fixed by simply increasing the amount of citizen slots in the industrial zone buildings.
     
  5. Breadsmith

    Breadsmith Chieftain

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    Except this doesn't solve the lack of housing or food that coastal cities can easily have, and at best would benefit inland cities just as much, since nobody uses specialists.

    And Firaxis already has the answer: Fisheries. Divorce them from Liang, stick them somewhere decent on the tech tree, and maybe tweak their yields in some way. Boom, now the coastal tiles without resources aren't complete garbage, their basically sea farms.
     
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  6. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    No, I never said it solved the issue with food or housing, I said it solved production. Nobody uses specialists because the yields are not worth it, which is easily fixed with the most basic mod (+1 yield to each and they are somewhat decent at the very least).

    The problem with fisheries is that the graphic is modern, so placing them earlier in the tech tree than modern would not make sense because of that. Anyway you can just easily mod coastal tiles for +1 extra food and they are decent, too.
     
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    These are good points, but probably lost in the game design philosophy behind Civ 6.

    This is, after all, the version of Civ that makes farms far away from large bodies of fresh water as productive as early farms along rivers and fresh water lakes.

    A lot of the core concepts from earlier versions of Civ have been dropped in 6, things like the importance of irrigation, the importance of rivers for trade, the importance of food generally to grow the people who were the source of your empire's armies and innovation (as opposed to unworked districts and buildings and armies that don't require people or food to support).

    This version of Civ isn't really about exploring the conditions that led to the development of major historical civilizations. Civ was never only about that anyway, but this version is the least interested in the historical aspects of human development.
     
  8. Breadsmith

    Breadsmith Chieftain

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    Sorry, miscommunication on my part. I was referring to the other issues that coastal cities have, which is comparative lack of food/housing compared to inland cities. But making specialists actually worth something would certainly help.
     
  9. Kimurae

    Kimurae Chieftain

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    I think simply tweaking the housing bit so river mouths got housing at 4-6, and allow faster movement along a river.

    It should also be harder for land units to pillage river and sea trade routes.
     
  10. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    It's still using production, a district slot and land space on a district you only get half benefit from. It's not that the CH will not give you any benefits, it's just that you're likely to get more benefits from building something else (like an industrial zone or a campus), if you ask me.

    This is an old pet peeve of mine, but I still think that they Harbor district needs to be completely reworked. I think the Harbor district should be an on-water version of the Commercial Hub, similar to how the Water Park is an on-water version of the Entertainment Complex.

    They should make a completely new district, call it a Naval Base, which would inherit the military aspects of the Harbor, and work as the naval equivalent of the Encampment and Airport district.

    On a sidenote, I also think the Seastead should be an on-water version of the Neighborhood.
     
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  11. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    Yes, the lack of some kind of sea-farm that can be put on the coastal tiles to increase housing does put coastal cities at a housing disadvantage.
     
  12. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

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    I personally like making coastal cities, even if they're not as good as landlocked ones... Just won a DIDO game with almost only coastal cities, so I don't feel they're totally crippling. I mostly
    agree with everything said in this thread, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel it's THAT bad. Of course, I'm not a max/min player, I can understand how it would be an important deficit for max/min players.

    OTOH, one thing I really dislike about harbors is the fact that they give GA points... and GA absolutely suck because the military sea game isn't really important. Whilst CH get GM pts,
    and GM are mostly useful...anyways a lot more than GA. So for me, that's a downside when comparing CH to HD.

    The housing deficiency is one I can live with, because there ARE ways to go around it with cards. The production one doesn't really have easy solutions. So to me, a VERY simple
    solution would be to add a card that adds +1 prod to coastal/lake/ocean tiles and make that card available fairly early in game. It would cost one slot, but at least it would be MY decision
    as a player to slot it or not, and I would not be dependent on the luck of getting Auckland to make my coastal cities great !
     
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  13. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Well, there are a lot of people complaining that Industrial Zones are bad, so with a bit of tweaking and an Industrial Zone/Harbor adjacency link ...

    I'm not saying it will fix all problems, but it could sort of kill two birds with one stone.
     
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  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Yea,but in that case you're basically neutering the city's science and culture potential for the sake of what? 10 gold, 4 food, and maybe 1 housing on a good day. Espeically now that Reyna early is an especially bad idea for people not named Kupe (and I still wouldn't suggest it). Sure, you could run the adjacency cards, but where do you find the culture to get there now?

    If you think about it, the Commercial Hub is actually the weakest link here because hub buildings just give some gold and a trade route. But here the trader doesn't work because you already have a lighthouse, so you're just building some stuff for a few extra gold and GM points.

    Heck, you're better off working plantations in these cases, and you know how badly I think of those. Like I could take a Brazillian rainforest start and make it 10 pop in the BCs easy with 3 districts (1 being reserved for entertainment if need be-- probably not)

    It might make sense with Japan. Or maybe England, simply because you have no other choice anyways. We do need to remember that the Royal Navy Dockyard is actually much better than a standard harbor though. But usually when I make a triangle, it's often the last district to get made when I don't need anything else, and usually I regret it if I do it any earlier. Given the need for Rock Bands .late game, I'm actually preferring late Holy Sites for cultural wins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  15. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Going to 'piggy back' on some other posts and ideas in this Thread. Forgive me if I don't quote everybody directly - I want to keep this post down to One Page, if possible!

    First, the RL advantage of Coastal Cities in one word: Trade. It gave access to goods and people from Far Away that might not be available at home. If the coastal city was also on a river (not at all uncommon) those benefits spread easily to other cities in your Civ.

    Second, the RL advantage of Sea Trade in a few words: Cheap Bulk Goods. By volume, Food, but also such Not Really Luxuries But Nice To Have things like decorated pottery, olive oil, wine, leather and other animal products from animals you don't have at home (i.e. cattle leather to Greece in the Classical Era, when leather from cows was the preferred 'raw material' for sandals and other durable leather products)
    The Byproduct of these Cheap Goods was that Sea Trade produced New Wealth by introducing the general population to things they could no longer live without that were only available through that Trade. That meant that a new 'sea merchant class' became wealthy, the old 'land owning' aristocracy became, relatively, impoverished, and Unrest ensued. One of the 'secrets' of the British Empire was that the British aristocracy either joined in trade or married into the merchant class that did, and so stayed in its pinnacle position. The French aristocracy stayed resolutely aloof from trade, and became both redundant and headless when the Revolution came (which, among many other reasons, started because the Merchant Class got tired of being taxed to support the King and Aristocracy).

    Third, about RL Harbors:
    Yes, you can build Galleys without a Harbor. You can build them on any sloping beach and shove them into the water when done, as long as there is enough timber nearby. A proper Ship Shed, Cothon, or harbor makes it much, much easier, and cheaper, and encourages setting up 'production lines' for ship building, of sorts: the Ship Sheds of the Athenian Classical navy at Piraeas had extra sets of oars, rams, masts, sails, and pre-cut timbers so that ships could be repaired or outfitted 'from stock' - the Venetian Arsenal of the early Renaissance Era was, in fact, merely improving techniques of Mediterranean ship building already in existence for over 1700 years, at least.
    A Harbor, though, massively increases the efficiency of Sea Trade. For one thing, it provides the warehouses for storage and regular places for the money exchange between shipper and seller in the city that speeds the goods on their way from ship to market. Thus, a proper harbor to only provides facilities for a lot more ships to load and unload, and be built, repaired, enlarged, and protected from storms while in port, it also provides the infrastructure to transform goods from potential to actual sources of Gold for all concerned - including the Gamer and his/her Coastal City.

    So, back to the Game. How to make Coastal Cities, and Sea Trade, as relevant as they should be. I'm going to focus on The Harbor as the 'unique' coastal District for Trade.

    1. Harbors should come much earlier in the game. I could even argue that Sailing Tech is not too early, given that generally the Foreign Trade Civic is also usually available by then.
    2. Harbors should provide more Gold than they do now, a basic Production boost because of generalized 'raw materials' coming in, and Great Merchant Points. Great Admiral Points will come later, with, say, Shipyards, or from UBs or Wonders: It can be argued that the Cothon and Venetian Arsenal should provide Great Admiral Points in addition to other bonuses.
    3 Having a Harbor is the Only way to get Food from a Trade Route.
    4. Harbor should also generate Trade Route capacity In Addition to any Commercial Hub or other trade route generating mechanism.
    5. Housing: Harbor generates +1 Housing, Lighthouse +2, Seaport +2: think East London or the tenements in the dockside districts of Boston, New York, Hamburg, Shanghai, etc.
    6. Harbor adjacency Bonus for both Commercial Hub and Industrial Zone, and having an Industrial Zone adjacent to a Harbor gives a Bonus to all ship construction in that Harbor.
    7. Having a Harbor/Shipyard with an Industrial Zone adjacent would be a requirement to build Battleships or Aircraft Carriers: both types required large scale, specialized industrial complexes that were only available in a few places in each country in RL.

    We can also 'tweak' the amount of Food, Production, Gold, etc coming out of Coastal Resources, but that will require some serious play testing to get right. My 'gut' feeling is that the actual Resources should be buffed, and probably the Coastal Land Tiles. Historically, having rich shellfish (Crab) or fishing resources off shore was both a major source of food and 'production' but also stimulated population concentration in the area/city, while no such concentration still had effects - there's always something to be caught, even if not concentrated to Game Scale - possibly a Food/Housing bonus to coastal land tiles . . .
     
  16. Red_warning

    Red_warning Warlord

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    The sea should simply provide a lot more gold and food, it's one of humanity's most important breadbaskets and by far the greatest trade lane since thousands of years ago. Even to this day the sea should be regarded as the main artery for commerce between nations, so it's really strange to see how the coast has been made into such an unattractive place to settle in a game like Civilizations.
     
  17. Sic

    Sic Chieftain

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    I love this idea.
     
  18. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Let's summarize the problems:
    1. production is king and oceans can't realistically provide much production
    2. Water tiles can't provide too much gold to prevent 1-tile islands from becoming overpowered
    3. districts need space on land to be placed and coastal cities have significantly less tiles to chose from
    4. Even cities 2 tile inland can build ships with a harbor, 1 coastal tile within the 3 rings is enough
    5. Coastal cities need a separate navy for defense, while inland empires can focus on their army alone
    6. Coastal cities are more affected by climate change (and to a lesser extent natural disasters
    Possible solutions:

    1) I mentioned the "production from population" mod earlier - it fixes a lot of issues: Food becomes more important, tall play gets a buff, coastal cities become more competitive,...
    See the mod for more details and also check the additionally recommended mods like "rebalanced mines":
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1651788601&searchtext=
    Apart from this rather significant change, gold could be a realistic substitute for production to a certain extent.
    The problem is the ease of acquiring gold from non-coast-related sources, especially trades with the AI.
    Solutions to consider:
    • Allowing more trade routes from harbors than from commercial hubs (example: 1 TR for each harbor, but only 1 TR for every 2 commercial hubs)
    • Alternatively, the number of trade routes could be: (number of harbors + number of commercial hubs + number of coastal city centers) divided by 2
    • Increased yields for TR's starting from a coastal city would also be an alternative
    • We could also give very strong yields to harbor buildings that double if the city center is adjacent
    2) Naval trade has to be represented through bonuses to the harbor, the city center or for trade routes. Water tile yields are trivial now, because loads of gold on every water tile would unrealistically favor one-tile islands (why should the Azores have a stronger harbor than Houston, Rotterdam or Shanghai?). To avoid this dilemma, we might as well remove tile yields from water completely except for fish/crabs/whales/pearls. Those resources would mostly give food (loads of it!) and some production - but all the naval gold should come from the district, the city center and trade routes!
    This might be radical, but if we are honest, the current yields from resourceless water is a trap - you're better of not working those tiles 99% of the time!

    3) I believe this can best be solved through stronger adjacency bonuses between the harbor and other districts (industrial zone and commercial hub especially).
    Campuses, theater squares, and holy sites could also get coastal adjacency bonuses (representing the inspiring nature of the sea, seafaring, trade and travel).

    4) This problem is probably best solved by following the advice from point 3 and giving strong incentives to concentrate city centers and districts along the coast.

    5) This problem can't be fixed as long as the coast isn't worth settling. As soon as the coast is important, everyone will want to have a navy.

    6) Cheaper flood barriers would certainly help. But again, this problem needs to be fixed first and foremost by fixing the importance of the ocean.
     
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  19. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

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    Wouldn't your commercial CS envoys count as double though? So you wouldn't be able to build a trade route but you also wouldn't have to build the trade route and still extract the extra gold from the commercial CS you are suzerain of. I mean, it's not ultra efficient, you're short one route and can't concentrate the missing route for a super-fast spaceport or wonder project, but it is sort of efficient in a good enough fun kind of way.
     
  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    I think we have separately come to many of the same conclusions regarding the problem. That either means we are on the right track or we're both about to get hit by the same train . . .

    Victoria will tell you that Chopping Is King other than 'Production' per se, but it comes to the same thing: Chop your sea resources and you have an almost completely unproductive tile for the rest of the game: rarely a good trade-off.

    The Climate effects seem to boil down to Hurricanes and the fact that they are mobile and can affect virtually any coastal tiles, as opposed to Volcanoes and Floods, which only affect certain, easily identifiable tiles, and the other 'natural disasters' which simply aren't as devastating (at least in my experience) as Hurricanes. IF Hurricanes are brought more in line with the other Disasters in destructiveness and alleviation techniques, this problem can be solved without any other Game/Play changes.
    For instance, Buildings or Districts on a hill, with a hill between them and the Coast, or even with a Marsh or Forest between them and the coast (which would greatly alleviate Storm Surge effects) could all be 'immune' from complete destruction. Pillaging from disasters is annoying, but, as I've posted before, having to keep a 1-Charge Builder around to repair disaster-struck tiles is not a game breaker: having to build new Buildings from scratch, interrupting all other construction in the city, is.

    I will have to try those mods, once the new Patch installs and we find out what Mods still work with it.
    My own tentative Solution to Making Population Important is to bring Specialists back with a Vengeance: to get any real results out of a building would require a Specialist, and every building, including Walls and the Palace, would have one or more Specialist slots. To balance this, each population point would represent both a (in the beginning, majority) portion of the population working the land/tiles around the city, and a (initially much smaller) portion working in the city as a Specialist.
    The Harbor and its buildings would have an advantage over other Buildings (but not necessarily all of them) in that their 'specialists' could be one of several types, providing Food, Gold, or Production 'bonuses' depending on whether they are affecting fishing, raw materials import and fabrication, or general Trade.

    First and Second Points: another possibility would be more Trade Routes from the Harbor buildings. It takes no stretch of Logic to assume that a Lighthouse and Seaport would generate more trade: that could give your developed Harbor up to 3 Trade Routes without further ado.
    Third Point: We agree completely on this: Sea trade routes were an Order of Magnitude more efficient at transporting goods than any other method before the Railroad, and the game doesn't begin to show this yet.
    Fourth Point: Harbor Adjacencies could, I think, legitimately be from Industrial Zones, Commercial Hubs or City Centers:
    Industrial Zone - Production Bonus and easier/cheaper production of ship units
    Commercial Hub - Gold Bonus, possibly even an extra Trade Route or Great Merchant Point
    City Center - Gold And Production Bonus, since the Palace was, at least until the late Renaissance Era, the major Market for luxury goods (from overseas) and a major center for the production of 'luxury' goods for the High Society gathered around the throne.

    See point about 'extra' adjacencies to City Center versus Commercial Hub or Industrial Zone, which would incentivize putting the City Center on the coast instead of 1 - 2 tiles inland.

    Addition to 3) above: Monasteries, Chateaus and similar 'bonus' structures should also get 'extra' bonuses from being on the coast. Possibly link it to the Appeal of the tile, so that the classic coastal hill/headland becomes a favorite spot for Lord HaHa's country residence or the Holy Brothers of the Webbed Foot to place their structures. - There's a golf course not 8 km from where I sit that gets extra traffic because it is located right on the shores of Puget Sound: the coast, as long as it's not raging, tends to attract people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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