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Nerfing the coast is just annoying

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Victoria, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Oh? So you have changed your mind now?

    Yeah, coastal cities suck without Auckland. They need extra housing, some culture and/or faith yield added, and a positive disaster interaction like every other city. And more accessible harbour.

    Climate change also needs to SMASH interior cities, to balance things better. Heat waves would be a nice start.

    Well they nerfed Seasteads for you, Victoria. So no more super cities for the final 5 turns.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2019
  2. knighterrant81

    knighterrant81 Warlord

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    Agreed. I don't think the dev team really realizes how much the introduction of Districts discourages coastal settlement. You are susceptible to extra disasters, are susceptible to flooded tiles, AI naval attack, have less land to work and place Districts on, for what? Higher gold yields from trade routes...eventually?
     
    craney1987, Victoria and acluewithout like this.
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Coastal cities don't need more housing. There are effectively two sorts of coastal cities - ones on Rivers mouths and ones without Rivers. They don't need to be equal.

    I'm not quite sure what coastal cities need. I don't think there's anything wrong with the disaster system overall but yeah it's a Nerf to coasts, and coasts were touch and go with balance anyway.

    I think part of the problem is how governors work. If you could basically have more than one Reyna or Liang then Coastal Cities would be way better.
     
  4. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Yeah they do.
     
  5. MaryKB

    MaryKB Crazy Spider Lady Supporter

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    I feel coasts are nice now with offshore improvements, as well as merchant city states now give you gold for your lighthouses and shipyards.
     
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Why?

    They get plenty of housing if they're on a river. Plus fishing boat, lighthouse, whatever.

    If they've not on a river, why do I need more housing? They'll generate enough gold as is. And if they get more housing, won't that make everything sort of "samey"?

    The "problem" with coastals is that they maybe have lower production which can make getting them set up a little harder (but as others have pointed out, a couple of mines sorts that out). And they're currently getting wrecked by climate change, which means they're currently maybe not worth the effort versus inland cities.

    On the second issue, a bit of rebalancing climate change etc may well help. After that, it's maybe just a question of making sure there's enough upside to having a coastal City. Ive thought for a while that maybe a free Trading Post would help. I'm sure there's other perks that would work too. Maybe Harbours give +2 adjacencies to IZs and Campuses?
     
  7. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well, note that Australia handles coast well because of their housing bonus.

    But I think it's a combination of coastal sites having no production, housing, AND food. (What are they good for again?).

    Oh yea, building boats.

    You can just take one forested coastal ships and chop some; then just forget it forever. Or maybe canal. But the city itself doesn't have to be usefil either.

    I guess Kilwa? But you don't need to build the city itself on the coast.

    Also make fisheries give housing or something ffs.
     
  8. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    There are already adjacency bonusses for city centers and commercial hubs and you can only put so many districts next to another on a coast. But I do agree that harbors need more production somehow. In a lot of RL coastal cities the harbors are industrial zones. Shipyards aren't enough, there is only one Reyna and there is seldom room for the card that double the bonus. Having all three buildings add production in some form might be a good start.
     
    Jkchart and acluewithout like this.
  9. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Exactly !!!

    Just look at this article:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landlocked_country
    "As a rule, being landlocked creates political and economic handicaps that access to the high seas avoids. For this reason, states large and small across history have striven to gain access to open waters, even at great expense in wealth, bloodshed, and political capital"
    "Historically, being landlocked has been disadvantageous to a country's development. It cuts a nation off from important sea resources such as fishing, and impedes or prevents direct access to seaborne trade, a crucial component of economic and social advance. As such, coastal regions tended to be wealthier and more heavily populated than inland ones. Paul Collier in his book The Bottom Billion argues that being landlocked in a poor geographic neighborhood is one of four major development "traps" by which a country can be held back."

    Note that the article is mostly about the current situation - it was even truer before railroads, trucks on paved roads and international trade regulations.


    Here is a very detailed world population density map:
    http://luminocity3d.org/WorldPopDen/#3/35.96/-0.26

    Note the concentration of people along the American, Australian and east Asian coast.
    Europe, India and China are a bit of an exception due to extremely high population density, millennia of development, political unity without trade barriers, and fertile, navigable river valleys (Rhine, Danube, Ganges, Yangtze,...)


    About solutions:
    The "production from population" mod (available in the workshop, created by p0kiehl based on an idea from Youtuber PotatoMcWhiskey) helps alleviate the issue in a fascinating way.
    - population provides base production (similar to science and culture) with a bonus for tall cities
    - mines are no longer buildable on all hills, only on ressources (optional part of the mod)
    - coastal cities get a natural, immersive production boost this way
    - The most valuable areas are no longer in hills but along fertile river valleys

    I personally added a small bit of extra gold/food to coast tiles and farms give 1 full housing, further improving the immersiveness.
     
    Jkchart and Boris Gudenuf like this.
  10. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    The Commercial Hub Adjacency is a relic of the old double trade routes. How many people build both a Harbour and a Commercial Hub in coastal cities these days?
     
    kaspergm likes this.
  11. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Me.

    They’re pretty good, actually.

    Sure, not in every city. But 2 or 3 triangles are great. Stick Reyna in one of them. Even just one triangle is awesome.
     
  12. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    One is fine. More than one and you are wasting early districts.
     
  13. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I agree, the Harbor/Commercial adjacency is obsolete. A Harber/Industrial Zone adjacency would be a HUGE boost for coastal cities, not least because these often lack production (because they lack hills), which both means no flat production, and no adjacency bonus for Industrial Zone, so you're double-penalized. Plus a Harbor/Industrial adjacency actually *makes sense*.

    On a grander scale, I love the idea of trade route yields being more dependent on rivers and oceans. It would be super cool if trade routes instead of the current domestic/international split looked more into whether they were land-going or water-going. By water-going, I mean either by a connecting river or by ocean. So you should be able to freight food and/or production by water, but not over land, until railroads come along. Once you connect cities with railroads, you can also transport food and production over land. This would be win/win, it'd both make coastal cities more valuable, and it would actually provide a substantial benefit of railroads.

    It would also open a whole new world to the canal system: Now canals could not only be a feature to connect oceans, you could also build canals to connect rivers. This has been a thing many places in Europe, probably many places in the world, so it would make perfect sense. So basically instead of the canal district occupying an entire hex, how cool would it be if canals could be constructed between hexes to works as artificial rivers? And if this again was integrated into the trade system, imagine how cool that would be!
     
  14. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    How are harbour, commercial hub triangles obsolete?

    I mean, I get that anything but campuses and or theatre squares is strictly inefficient. But if you’re playing “sort of efficient”, they seem like a good return to me, particularly if those cities get shipyards later.
     
  15. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Because you are using up a district slot for a Commercial Hub without a trade route.
     
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  16. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Well, coasts as coasts were never super-productive IRL; in combination with a river, however, that's a different story. You'll note that coasts themselves, historically, were never a a thing for large population centers, except if other considerations were important (like Constantinople - strategic placement trumped lack of fresh water).
    The reason is simple - you can't do anything with salt water and is damaging to most building materials.

    Regarding coastal cities and flooding in Civ6, well, it's not like the game doesn't warn you in advance... I don't find flood barries that important, since the number of tiles that will get submerged is actually not that great, considering total tile counts a coastal city can work.
     
  17. kb27787

    kb27787 Emperor

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    Because housing is limited for coastal cities so you cannot build any other district even with granary.

    To reach size 7 you need 8 housing... Coast and granary only get you to 5... Means you need 6 freaking boats or farms unless you are willing to sacrifice SP slots for housing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    If I build a harbour commercial hub triangle then I do that in a city with a river usually. Anyway. I'm not going to build any other districts in that city - two districts is fine. So that's Pop 4.

    The real problem with harbour commercial hub triangles is just you don't need all that gold. You can get more than enough trading favour and luxes.
     
  19. King of Prussia

    King of Prussia Warlord

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    i will agree that with the district system we have now, coastal cities are kinda meh. it doesn't help a lot of their sea improvements are only unlocked in the late game. im not sure if adding new improvements in the early to mid game would help.(or having tech improve liangs fishery thing?) maybe finding a way to make coastal tiles hold non water districts could be something. they need something to make them better. the lack of space to build on land, because the city is on the coast can be somewhat frustrating. the lack of space wouldn't be so bad if it was made up elsewhere.
     
  20. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Coastal Cities really should be integral to trade. But they aren't because you can just get trade routes via commercial hubs, and actually commercial hubs are easier to research. Buffing gold from sea routes is a good idea, but those few extra coin just aren't enough motivation to have coastals.

    The fact all your coastal cities are going to flood and you won't have enough hammers to repair and or build sea walls isn't helpful either.

    I think the only real solution is to Nerf commercial hubs relative to Harbours, but I can't see that ever happening.
     

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