[R&F] Netherlands leaked on Dutch TV

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

The idea that it's an 'insult' is hilarious. I mean, really, some people need to relax a bit!

 

[KayAU]

Despite this being another quite modern civ, and another European civ...I am actually quite excited about this one. I like the choice of leader, although if this sweet old lady denounces me or declares war, I might start to cry.

I am curious about the abilities. It looks like we are getting another coastal improvement, with housing, food and production, which might be quite similar to Indonesia's UI. I really like this, but it does seem like Rise and Fall will introduce some more uses for water tiles, making these UI's somewhat weaker, relatively.

As for the leader ability, I'm guessing something to do with loyalty, based on Wilhelmina's role in WW2. It would be a bit weird if this helped the Netherlands go wider, though, as it is not what I associate with the country.

For civ ability, I am guessing something to do with trade.

 

[Vandlys]

Despite this being another quite modern civ, and another European civ...I am actually quite excited about this one. I like the choice of leader, although if this sweet old lady denounces me or declares war, I might start to cry.

I am curious about the abilities. It looks like we are getting another coastal improvement, with housing, food and production, which might be quite similar to Indonesia's UI. I really like this, but it does seem like Rise and Fall will introduce some more uses for water tiles, making these UI's somewhat weaker, relatively.

As for the leader ability, I'm guessing something to do with loyalty, based on Wilhelmina's role in WW2. It would be a bit weird if this helped the Netherlands go wider, though, as it is not what I associate with the country.

For civ ability, I am guessing something to do with trade.

Loyalty can be bought with money.

 

[frubox]

Loyalty can be bought with money.

Amen

But the Netherlands are also one of the most densely populated countries in the world (top 3 i think), which makes tall a strong option

 

[Absolution]

You could at least bother reading the thread before making a comment like this. I don't neccesarily agree with the choice either, but plenty arguments can be made why she's a good inclusion, as people have shown here.

At 22 pages of content, I think it is quite acceptable for me not to be part of the whole process of discussion here.
It is unreasonable to expect every commenter to read the whole thread before posting. Nothing about her inclusion was mentioned in the first 3 pages, and I don't think I was being rude for not reading further into the thread.

Anyway, when calling it an "insult", I mainly relate to the developers' attempts to reflect women's significance through the history of different cultures.
If they need women like Grogo or Wilhelmina, it may mean that in order to find an important female leader they reduced much of their "standard criteria" (thus suggesting that they can't really find great females, and then what's the whole point of their seek for historical feminism?).
While they actually didn't have to, with much more impressive options for female rulers remained unchosen.

Loyalty can be bought with money.

I'm curious - what are the differences between the Yellow and the Light Green?

 

[durfal]

Again the creators disappoint me with their choice of female rulers.

It is once again an insult both for historical feminism and for the civilization which it represents.
What does Wilhelmina stand out for other than reigning for a long period?
There are plenty of better female leaders to add to current/speculated civilizations, and surely there are plenty of better Dutch leaders.

They could even choose Mary of the Habsburg Netherlands, if they seek for a female leader of the Dutch.

If you read at least a few pages before your post you would have seen that no Dutchman is insulted with this choice.
She is even very respected by the Dutch, I suggest reading up on her. If you then still find her a bad choice, well lets say, you have the right of your own opinion.

Personally I would have chosen a leader from the Dutch revolt against Spain or the Dutch Golden Age but that doesn't mean she is a bad choice at all.

 

[KayAU]

I know the Dutch Empire was widespread during colonial times, but that was a bit before Wilhelmina's days, wasn't it? I am no expert on world history, far less so than most people here I think, but with Wilhelmina as the leader, I would assume that this is a somewhat modern version of the Netherlands.

 

[marius_kaparius]

I know the Dutch Empire was widespread during colonial times, but that was a bit before Wilhelmina's days, wasn't it? I am no expert on world history, far less so than most people here I think, but with Wilhelmina as the leader, I would assume that this is a somewhat modern version of the Netherlands.

I think with the expansion theme being Rise and Fall that opens the door for leaders that reigned during not so great times.

 

[Vahnstad]

I know the Dutch Empire was widespread during colonial times, but that was a bit before Wilhelmina's days, wasn't it? I am no expert on world history, far less so than most people here I think, but with Wilhelmina as the leader, I would assume that this is a somewhat modern version of the Netherlands.

I didn't know Gandhi used war elephants when they fought for independence.

 

[ToothedBomb]

If you read at least a few pages before your post you would have seen that no Dutchman is insulted with this choice.

Insulted doesn't quite describe it, but I am disappointed we're represented by the "fall" part rather than the "rise." Especially since, in my opinion, this fall wasn't a glorious struggle or anything. We just kinda got steamrolled and then the queen did radio shows. If they wanted to represent a country's resistance, there are much better options, as has been stated by others in this thread. IMO the rise of the Dutch is much more interesting and makes for an infinitely more fitting choice.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I know the Dutch Empire was widespread during colonial times, but that was a bit before Wilhelmina's days, wasn't it? I am no expert on world history, far less so than most people here I think, but with Wilhelmina as the leader, I would assume that this is a somewhat modern version of the Netherlands.

Obviously she is modern and her ability will reflect that. We will see in a little bit, but I think everything else will be from before her time such as Polders, the UU (looks like it might be a Indian Dutchman) and I expect the Unique Ability to deal with the Economics/Money during their Golden Age.
Japan has Medieval leader Hojo with Samurai and their UA deals with the more modern Meiji Restoration and can build Electronics Factory. Germany was medieval until the U-Boats. England and France also have different UU from different time periods from when they would have ruled (Sea Dog, Imperiale Garde). The Seowon and Hwacha were past Seodeock's time. The Civs special abilities this time around are reaching across different time periods, if they are able to.

 

[bite]

Closing this thread now we have the firs took Please discuss it here - https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/netherlands-first-look.625376/