Never Before Seen Civs - Elimination Game

[Guandao]

Armenians 16
Ashanti (12+1)=13 I think they were important enough to merit inclusion. Apparently Firaxis finds them notable enough to make them a City-State. Plus Akan are one of West Africa's most major ethnic groups, with many people in the Americas also being descended from them.
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 23
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15
Hebrews 24
Maori/Other Polynesians 22
Phoenicians (9-3)=6 I don't find their leaders interesting enough. Firaxis would probably give them an ability concerning their purple dye.
Swahili/Kilwa 19
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 13

 

[The Kingmaker]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 23-3=20 Do I think they merit inclusion? Absolutely. Do I think they belong in first place? Nope.
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15
Hebrews 24+1=25 If you learn about a civ in a World Civ class, they belong in the game.
Maori/Other Polynesians 22
Phoenicians 6
Swahili/Kilwa 19
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 13

 

[Morningcalm]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 20
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15 - 3 = 12 (Who would be a well-documented enough leader for this civ? I don't think we have enough of a record for these groups, even if their art is excellent. I have the same reasons for downvoting these groups as I do for the Olmecs)
Hebrews 25
Maori/Other Polynesians 22 + 1 = 23 (Maoris would be a worthy civ with detailed leaders, potential units, infrastructure, and civ abilities. And their music would be excellent and very different from the typical European orchestra fare)
Phoenicians 6
Swahili/Kilwa 19
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 13

 

[Manifold]

Apparently I'm going to have to abandon my defense of Georgia to defend the most unique and sophisticated culture in North America.

Nice wooden shoe, but some thousand years ago a lot of people wore wooden shoes

Phoenicians 12 (15 - 3) -- A lack of noteworthy leaders and more localized influence compared to the vast colonial empire of Carthage makes them a dubious choice. Sure, Firaxis could just make stuff up, but we saw how well that worked out for Sumer.

@Zaarin: I am disappointed in you You know exactly that the Phoenicians build a lot of colonies all over the Mediterranean in Cyprus, Agaeis, Sicily, Africa, Spain, Portugal...and not just Carthage. After the conquest of Tyre Carthage took over the lead but they were still Phoenicians. Their leaders were better known than a lot of existing leaders from other existing Civs (e.g. Australia).

Phoenicians 12-3=9 - Carthage is much more interresting.

The Romans call them all Punics (even the Carthaginians) = Phoenicians

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 20
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 12
Hebrews 22 (25-3) I make it exciting and one Canaanite Civ is enough. Another "get a religion for free" Civ is not required. If you could implement them they would get Salomon as leader as great builder and as UU a archer - oh, wait Nubia takes this place already.
Maori/Other Polynesians 23
Phoenicians 7 (6+1) nearly the same Civilization like the Hebrews (just other religion both were Canaanites) but more powerful. They were the inventors of the alphabet and naval warfare and and they (Carthage as leading City) were close to take over the Roman position in world history...they are made for alternative history scenario pare excellence. Carthage could be the capital of a merchant empire lead by Hanno the Navigator.
Swahili/Kilwa 19
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 13

 

[luigilime]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 20-3=17 the least appealing of the list
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 12
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 23
Phoenicians 7
Swahili/Kilwa 19+1=20 this would be a wonderful trading civilization
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 13

 

[Zaarin]

Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 15 - 3 = 12 (Who would be a well-documented enough leader for this civ? I don't think we have enough of a record for these groups, even if their art is excellent. I have the same reasons for downvoting these groups as I do for the Olmecs)

Chief Shayksh of the Tlingit would be my choice. How can a group that still exists be in the same category as a culture that ceased to exist three thousand years ago?

Nice wooden shoe, but some thousand years ago a lot of people wore wooden shoes

That's a dance mask, actually. Did you know some of them, called transformation masks, are mechanical and open up to reveal a second mask inside?

@Zaarin: I am disappointed in you You know exactly that the Phoenicians build a lot of colonies all over the Mediterranean in Cyprus, Agaeis, Sicily, Africa, Spain, Portugal...and not just Carthage. After the conquest of Tyre Carthage took over the lead but they were still Phoenicians. Their leaders were better known than a lot of existing leaders from other existing Civs (e.g. Australia).

Yes, they did, including Carthage, but they didn't continue to administrate those colonies; Carthage did. And yes, the Carthaginians were still Phoenicians; even in the days of St. Augustine they continued to speak Punic (though it was already rapidly moribund) and continued to call themselves Canaanites. But I couldn't name any non-Carthaginian ruler other than Hiram I of Tyre, and I don't think selling some wood to King Solomon really qualifies for "big personality." Phoenicia has no Hannibals or Hamilcars; it doesn't even have any Didos. Even if we very dubiously include Ugarit (who were not Phoenician, but let's be generous), the best we could come up with is the mythical Danel.

Hebrews 22 (25-3) I make it exciting and one Canaanite Civ is enough. Another "get a religion for free" Civ is not required. If you could implement them they would get Salomon as leader as great builder and as UU a archer - oh, wait Nubia takes this place already.

Why must it be Solomon? IMO Hezekiah of Judah makes much more sense, being historically attested and both the Bible and extra-Biblical sources agree he was a good king and efficient administrator.

Phoenicians 7 (6+1) nearly the same Civilization like the Hebrews (just other religion both were Canaanites) but more powerful. They were the inventors of the alphabet and naval warfare and and they (Carthage as leading City) were close to take over the Roman position in world history...they are made for alternative history scenario pare excellence. Carthage could be the capital of a merchant empire lead by Hanno the Navigator.

Hanno the Navigator wasn't even a suffet, nor even a noteworthy military leader like Hamilcar. Hanno the Navigator leading Carthage would be like Captain Cook or Sir Francis Drake leading England...

 

[Morningcalm]

Chief Shayksh of the Tlingit would be my choice. How can a group that still exists be in the same category as a culture that ceased to exist three thousand years ago?

Google searched that leader; didn't find any results. Do you have a URL to an info site handy?

And I downvoted both Haida/Tlingit and Olmecs/Other because they lack well-documented leaders/military units basically. I didn't focus on the temporal gap between the two groups' existence.

 

[Manifold]

Hanno the Navigator wasn't even a suffet, nor even a noteworthy military leader like Hamilcar. Hanno the Navigator leading Carthage would be like Captain Cook or Sir Francis Drake leading England...

Right, Hanno was even king, Basileus.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Right, Hanno was even king, Basileus.

Maybe I'm totally blind or I have just dirty glasses, but I'm currently reading his Wikipedia article, and I see that he was an explorer, but I don't see any mention of him being "the king of Carthage"

 

[Zaarin]

Google searched that leader; didn't find any results. Do you have a URL to an info site handy?

And I downvoted both Haida/Tlingit and Olmecs/Other because they lack well-documented leaders/military units basically. I didn't focus on the temporal gap between the two groups' existence.

Here; I forgot it was usually spelled "Shakes" in English, and I misspelled the Tlingit--should be Sheiyksh. Also, I think the Haida/Tlingit have a very obvious unique unit: Haida war canoe.

Maybe I'm totally blind or I have just dirty glasses, but I'm currently reading his Wikipedia article, and I see that he was an explorer, but I don't see any mention of him being "the king of Carthage"

Especially since Carthage didn't have kings, being an oligarchy and all. I suspect the Manifold may be thinking of the Numidian King Juba II, who was not an explorer but who funded a number of exploratory voyages (including to the Canary Islands) and wrote some books on natural history.

 

[Manifold]

Especially since Carthage didn't have kings, being an oligarchy and all. I suspect the Manifold may be thinking of the Numidian King Juba II, who was not an explorer but who funded a number of exploratory voyages (including to the Canary Islands) and wrote some books on natural history.

There is certainly no confusion!

You have to understand a bit the ancient government system. Let me explain a bit. The leaders, kings and high magistrates in the oligarchies of the ancient Civilizations were always the military commanders (Consuls, Strategos, Archons, ...). The ancient people made their heroes of war to their leaders. For the highest civil magistrates it was just to dangerous to give the military power into other hands. They did not give a fleet to surround Africa in the hand of an pirate like Elisabeth I. Furthermore when Hanno came back, he was the greatest guy of all Phoenicians

Hanno the Navigator leading Carthage would be like Captain Cook or Sir Francis Drake leading England...

Sharp tongue -did you mean Captain Hook

Maybe I'm totally blind or I have just dirty glasses, but I'm currently reading his Wikipedia article, and I see that he was an explorer, but I don't see any mention of him being "the king of Carthage"

I recommend a better sources. Try a search with google: Hanno+basileus with over 100000 hits

.

 

[Returning Lurker]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 17+1=18
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE 17
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 12
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 23
Phoenicians 7
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 13-3=10

I know there is still a very strong possibility that we're getting Vietnam next, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd rather take any of its neighbors first. They all outshined Vietnam by a country mile and if it weren't for the big fat commie elephant in the room I think Vietnam would be on par with Laos as far as brand recognition goes.

In the ancient era the tribes occupying present day Nigeria created some of the most impressive and detailed works of metal artwork in the world. In the medieval era the tribes of Nigeria solidified and formed some of the most stable and long lasting kingdoms and dynasties south of the Sahara. In the renaissance era Benin (Nigeria) spice traders and precious metal merchants turned the coast into one of the largest trading hubs between Africa and Europe. In the Industrial era Dahomey effectively became the staging grounds for the entire European slave trade which, while obviously horrible, unquestionably changed the political landscape of the entire world for centuries. In the modern era Nigeria has emerged as Africa's strongest and most rapidly developing economy with a major focus on advancing technology and modernization while maintaining African culture. They've earned a spot.

 

[Zaarin]

There is certainly no confusion!

You have to understand a bit the ancient government system. Let me explain a bit. The leaders, kings and high magistrates in the oligarchies of the ancient Civilizations were always the military commanders (Consuls, Strategos, Archons, ...). The ancient people made their heroes of war to their leaders. For the highest civil magistrates it was just to dangerous to give the military power into other hands. They did not give a fleet to surround Africa in the hand of an pirate like Elisabeth I. Furthermore when Hanno came back, he was the greatest guy of all Phoenicians

I am very familiar with the Carthaginian governing system. Hanno the Navigator was an important person, but he was never involved directly in the government--perhaps you are thinking of one of the gazillion suffets named Hanno? Also, basileus would be a very strange translation of sopeṭ; it would much better suit milk, but for the Carthaginians Milk was a god, not a title.

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 13 (12 + 1) -- By far the most sophisticated culture in North America, easily two ages ahead of any other society on the Civics tree, in Civ6 terms, even if there might have been others further ahead on the tech tree (though the sophistication of PNW tools and architecture shouldn't be slighted, and no one could excel them in shipcraft). The Chilkat weave, developed by the Tsimshian and adopted by the other Northern tribes, is the most complex weave in the world. Haida war canoes could exceed sixty feet in length and were seaworthy even on the open ocean. Did I mention the Nuu-chah-nulth and Makah hunted whales from these canoes? PNW crest poles are both iconic and beautiful, and conceptually would have been right at home in Medieval Europe. The Tsimshian adopted Christianity and then turned it into something uniquely Tsimshian. It's true, leaders might not stand out in a Teddy Roosevelt sort of way, but the rest of the civilization practically designs itself--the war canoe is an obvious unique unit, the clan house with crest pole an obvious unique infrastructure, etc.
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20 (23 - 3) -- Potentially interesting but by no means worthy of being the leading civ on this list.
Phoenicians 7
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[God of Kings]

Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 13 (12 + 1) -- By far the most sophisticated culture in North America, easily two ages ahead of any other society on the Civics tree, in Civ6 terms, even if there might have been others further ahead on the tech tree (though the sophistication of PNW tools and architecture shouldn't be slighted, and no one could excel them in shipcraft). The Chilkat weave, developed by the Tsimshian and adopted by the other Northern tribes, is the most complex weave in the world. Haida war canoes could exceed sixty feet in length and were seaworthy even on the open ocean. Did I mention the Nuu-chah-nulth and Makah hunted whales from these canoes? PNW crest poles are both iconic and beautiful, and conceptually would have been right at home in Medieval Europe. The Tsimshian adopted Christianity and then turned it into something uniquely Tsimshian. It's true, leaders might not stand out in a Teddy Roosevelt sort of way, but the rest of the civilization practically designs itself--the war canoe is an obvious unique unit, the clan house with crest pole an obvious unique infrastructure, etc.

The war canoes of the Pacific Northwest are capable of travelling from the Pacific Northwest to Hawaii with the installation of a sail. This has been proven in the late 1970s.

 

[Returning Lurker]

The war canoes of the Pacific Northwest are capable of travelling from the Pacific Northwest to Hawaii with the installation of a sail. This has been proven in the late 1970s.

To be completely fair a javelin is capable of being thrown into space with the installation of a solid fuel rocket ship.

 

[Amrunril]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 13
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 17
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14 (13 + 1) As my argument for today's vote, I thought it would be an interesting idea to present the civ concept I've been working on. I hope it illustrates my point that this really is a civ that lends itself to unique gameplay.
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Phoenicians 4 (7 - 3) I'd like to see Phoenicia or Carthage appear eventually (no particular preference as to which), but I think they should be a lower than the many remaining civs that add entirely new regions and cultural groups to the franchise.
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Zaarin]

The war canoes of the Pacific Northwest are capable of travelling from the Pacific Northwest to Hawaii with the installation of a sail. This has been proven in the late 1970s.

It's also speculated that the Haida had intermittent contact Kamchatka without sails, though this hasn't been demonstrably proven. Then again, it's looking increasingly probable that the Tlingit still have living cousins, the Ket, in Siberia, so who knows.

To be completely fair a spear is capable of being thrown into space with the instalation of a solid fuel rocket ship.

That would have to be some spear to survive the sheer force.

 

[Returning Lurker]

That would have to be some spear to survive the sheer force.

It could be housed beneath the ablative plating.

 

[Potato Based]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 10 (13 - 3) They are interesting, but I haven't see a compelling argument to choose them over the nearby Benin/Nigeria.
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6
Burmese 13
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18 (17 + 1) The successors of the most advanced and powerful Native American civilization in pre-Columbian America north of Mexico. There is a lot you can take from the history of the "5 Civilized Tribes" to make an interesting civ.
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Phoenicians 4
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10

 

[Xandinho]

Armenians 16
Ashanti 10
Benin (Dahomey)/Benin (Nigeria) 18
Bohemians/Czechs/Great Moravia 6 - 3 = 3 There are many regions that need to be filled before, for example...
Burmese 13 + 1 = 14 Southeast Asia, which is completely unrepresented.
Creek/Muskogee/Other SE NA 18
Georgians 14
Haida/Tlingit/Other PNW NA 14
Hebrews 22
Maori/Other Polynesians 20
Phoenicians 4
Swahili/Kilwa 20
Tibetans 12
Vietnamese 10