New and Changed Civilizations in 1.18

[TwoF]

Hm. 37 million people on 13 million sq km. Doesn't sound like a huge number.

You don't need to have a large number to be unique. You just need to have a higher number than the others. No one else even comes close to that number in such a cold area.
And the main thing here is not that most of Siberia is cold taiga, but that most of Siberia where people live is cold taiga.

 

[Dracosolon]

I tend to agree with the idea that it's best if the UP/UB/etc. represent different aspects of the civ, but I assume there's a reason for such a strong emphasis on whipping/drafting this time around. Russia should be one of the most dramatically changed civs on the new map, because its terrain is now generally poorer and it has even more space to settle. All these cities can benefit from whipping in the short term because they won't have many high value tiles to exploit.

This discussion also depends on "what should be Russia's game be like, with what strengths, weaknesses, and goals", which is where the UHV plays a role in defining that experience. Russia on the old map was a bit like China in that it has a vast, largely uncontested territory (China's is of much higher quality but Russia's is larger), with a difficult early game of expansion, resistance to Barbarians and anticipation of the Mongols. If you get past these early challenge, you're left with a powerful tech civ with a relatively straightforward UHV game and little need to interact with the rest of the world. Russia on the new map could be completely different.

 

[navivoleb]

Since such a discussion has arisen about Russia, I will say that in fact the new UP at least reflects serfdom, which to some extent was equated with slavery. It is very interesting to be a “ruler” who will bring the country to a level where the UP will become useless.

It would be just as wonderful if there were nomads in the southern steppes of Russia who would represent the Scythians, Sarmatians or Khazars, and later the Golden Horde.
These lands are quite empty and to be honest, there is no challenge to go to Siberia, it would also be great if Rus', after the loss of Kiev from the Mongols, moved north and became the Novgorod Republic.
Usually Moscow gets these cities when it spawns, but imagine that you will need to capture the north and south of Russia.

 

[Cypriot]

You don't need to have a large number to be unique. You just need to have a higher number than the others. No one else even comes close to that number in such a cold area.
And the main thing here is not that most of Siberia is cold taiga, but that most of Siberia where people live is cold taiga.

Well, people does not live in the coldest areas. Such big cities as Novosibirsk (more than million people) and Vladivostok (600 thousands) are located in the southern part of Siberia (well, Vladivostok is not technically in Siberia, but still) and their daily mean temperature is actually large than 0 C. Compare to Yakutsk which is located norther and has 400 thousands people (and is capital of Yakutia - Sakha and contains half of its population) or Norilsk which located inside the Arctic Circle and has only 170 thousands people or Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky with 160 thousands. And that's it, all other cities in the northern part of Siberia have population less than 100 thousands, while southern part is much more populated. So Siberia is populated very uniquely and people lives in the places with the better climate.

 

[TwoF]

Well, people does not live in the coldest areas. Such big cities as Novosibirsk (more than million people) and Vladivostok (600 thousands) are located in the southern part of Siberia (well, Vladivostok is not technically in Siberia, but still) and their daily mean temperature is actually large than 0 C. Compare to Yakutsk which is located norther and has 400 thousands people (and is capital of Yakutia - Sakha and contains half of its population) or Norilsk which located inside the Arctic Circle and has only 170 thousands people or Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky with 160 thousands. And that's it, all other cities in the northern part of Siberia have population less than 100 thousands, while southern part is much more populated. So Siberia is populated very uniquely and people lives in the places with the better climate.

The average annual temperature of Vladivostok is approximately equal to that of Reykjavik. The temperature of Yekaterinburg is even lower and is comparable to the temperature of Anchorage (Alaska). The temperature in Novosibirsk is even lower. Montreal, Toronto, all Scandinavian capitals have an average temperature higher than in Vladivostok.
Check out the world average temperature map, population density map and Wikipedia. I think you have no idea how cold it is in “southern Siberia” compared to other regions.

 

[Dracosolon]

New Russian UP: Cities 10 times smaller than your capital cost no maintenance.

 

[Cypriot]

The average annual temperature of Vladivostok is approximately equal to that of Reykjavik. The temperature of Yekaterinburg is even lower and is comparable to the temperature of Anchorage (Alaska). The temperature in Novosibirsk is even lower. Montreal, Toronto, all Scandinavian capitals have an average temperature higher than in Vladivostok.
Check out the world average temperature map, population density map and Wikipedia. I think you have no idea how cold it is in “southern Siberia” compared to other regions.

OK, it is more inhabitat. But slightly. Still don't think it is worth bonus.

New Russian UP: Cities 10 times smaller than your capital cost no maintenance.

Cities 10 times smaller recieve 10 times less standart of living would be more accurate.

 

[Askii2D]

Leoreth's Russian UP (hardship) and UB (katorga) are awesome:

- historical
- suit gameplay
- are great combined
- better then General Winter.
- easy to balance

 

[Cypriot]

Don't know, they force player to go for specific civics if he wants effectively use them. I don't like it, I prefer having options.

 

[Askii2D]

Don't know, they force player to go for specific civics if he wants effectively use them. I don't like it, I prefer having options.

good point, dear Cypriot.


mb make like Phoenicia?


katorga was usual in monarchy and state party times.

 

[TsimTsigal]

mb make like Phoenicia?

Phoenicia starts with Citizenship and doesn't get alternatives before their UHV deadline, they aren't restricted by their UP, while new Russian UP indirectly harms economy and stability (Despotism has only one modern synergy iirc, and blocks you from both super useful State Party and super stable Democracy).

Unconditional access to whipping is much, much better though (and changing the name to "The Power of Autocracy", implying that Russia is always Despotic, even if it's Democratic or Monarchist, wink-wink), but I honestly prefer old UP and new building rather than new UP and something else as building. Invading Russia should be difficult, after all. It also indirectly nudges player to neglect to modernize their army (AI will die to UP either way), which is amusingly sorta historical.

P.S.I know it's not reasonable from gameplay point of view, but why State Party/Totalitarism have no access to whipping? It's even more bizzare given that Despotism never obsoletes (unlike, say, Republic), and that modernish autoritarian states like Colombia start with it, implying that Despotism is authoritarian, non-doctrinal dictatorship, while Single Party is totalitarian... but totalitarian regimes are more prone to, uh, whipping. Given that Totalitarism is currently rather meh (i believe i have mentioned in another thread that no civ really has a valid reason to run it), maybe give it whipping as well?

 

[Dracosolon]

I think Totalitarianism doesn't have whipping because:

- Civics aren't designed to have that much overlap (and between Totalitarianism and Despotism the latter should have it since its category is generally stronger),
- Totalitarianism has other effects to symbolize culling the population in a more organized manner.

For Russia - it doesn't seem out of the question to give it access to whipping through some other mean (a wonder?) but even with the UP other Government will probably still be competitive (namely Elective and State Party), so the UP would effectively be a temporary boost.

 

[TwoF]

Phoenicia starts with Citizenship and doesn't get alternatives before their UHV deadline, they aren't restricted by their UP, while new Russian UP indirectly harms economy and stability (Despotism has only one modern synergy iirc, and blocks you from both super useful State Party and super stable Democracy).

Unconditional access to whipping is much, much better though (and changing the name to "The Power of Autocracy", implying that Russia is always Despotic, even if it's Democratic or Monarchist, wink-wink), but I honestly prefer old UP and new building rather than new UP and something else as building. Invading Russia should be difficult, after all. It also indirectly nudges player to neglect to modernize their army (AI will die to UP either way), which is amusingly sorta historical.

P.S.I know it's not reasonable from gameplay point of view, but why State Party/Totalitarism have no access to whipping? It's even more bizzare given that Despotism never obsoletes (unlike, say, Republic), and that modernish autoritarian states like Colombia start with it, implying that Despotism is authoritarian, non-doctrinal dictatorship, while Single Party is totalitarian... but totalitarian regimes are more prone to, uh, whipping. Given that Totalitarism is currently rather meh (i believe i have mentioned in another thread that no civ really has a valid reason to run it), maybe give it whipping as well?

Civil institutions in the game need to be treated more specifically. Despotism means something of its own, and totalitarianism means its own. Here they are not umbrella terms for bad and evil dictatorship. There is a difference between them. What is the difference between a republic and a democracy.
As for Russia, this must be taken in such a way that a certain “despotism” was not a relevant civil law until 1991, but only replaced first the monarchy, and then the Soviet system for only a while “in the hour of great need.” Then everything returned to normal.

 

[1SDANi]

Phoenicia starts with Citizenship and doesn't get alternatives before their UHV deadline, they aren't restricted by their UP, while new Russian UP indirectly harms economy and stability (Despotism has only one modern synergy iirc, and blocks you from both super useful State Party and super stable Democracy).

Unconditional access to whipping is much, much better though (and changing the name to "The Power of Autocracy", implying that Russia is always Despotic, even if it's Democratic or Monarchist, wink-wink), but I honestly prefer old UP and new building rather than new UP and something else as building. Invading Russia should be difficult, after all. It also indirectly nudges player to neglect to modernize their army (AI will die to UP either way), which is amusingly sorta historical.

P.S.I know it's not reasonable from gameplay point of view, but why State Party/Totalitarism have no access to whipping? It's even more bizzare given that Despotism never obsoletes (unlike, say, Republic), and that modernish autoritarian states like Colombia start with it, implying that Despotism is authoritarian, non-doctrinal dictatorship, while Single Party is totalitarian... but totalitarian regimes are more prone to, uh, whipping. Given that Totalitarism is currently rather meh (i believe i have mentioned in another thread that no civ really has a valid reason to run it), maybe give it whipping as well?

In theory, I think this new power will work really well.

For context, I interpret civics as the following. Despotism mainly represents absolute monarchies like the Roman Empire or the Ottoman Empire and military rule like Goguryeo or Colombia, and rapid centralized industrialization like that of the USSR, whilst State Party represents single party states like what the USSR became following their industrialization. Despotism's effect reflects how the greater autocratic centralization of the government allowed for despotates to more rapidly develop their infrastructure, whilst State Party represents single party states' historical ability to better manage larger territorial extents through giving people the sense of their government being representational without any of the intra-government conflicts of democracy.

I see gameplay following a roughly historical path in this regard, switching to Revolutionism, Totalitarianism, Central Planning, and Secularism the instant they become available, but the UP making the USSR hold off on switching off of Despotism until the need for reducing maintenance surpasses the need for industrilization. The fact that civic maintenance scales with population is basically already what happens in the USSR UHV run currently, as once cities are properly industrialized, their production output outstrips the production benefits of whipping, which results in less whipping, and thus more population growth, and thus more civic maintenance. Likewise, the UP will ensure Nationalism remains the most effective civic choice so long as the USSR continues to engage in warfare, which means most games will never see Russia adopt Multilateralism.

 

[Matara]

So let's make Russian could whip with State Party too.

 

[1SDANi]

So let's make Russian could whip with State Party too.

I guess? I'd say having the switch to State Party occur later works better though, just because the USSR was a single party state de jure for the whole of its existence doesn't mean that it wasn't a lot more centralized during the process of industrialization.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Despotism means something of its own, and totalitarianism means its own. Here they are not umbrella terms for bad and evil dictatorship. There is a difference between them. What is the difference between a republic and a democracy.

Democracy and Totalitarism (as well as Authoritarism) are regimes, Republic is a form of goverment (although in DoC Republic refers to more elitist and direct form of goverment that was used in Anceint Rome and Athens i presume, as opposed to modern Democracy; the problem with Despotism is that it represents both ancient autocracies and modern authoritarian states, which honestly makes little sense). Strictly speaking, both the PRC and the USSR are republics, despite being wildly different to the USA, while the UK is a monarchy with democratic regime.

Moreover, "bad and evil" is totally not something i'd use in discussion about political science, even its representation in games.

 

[Leoreth]

Please be mindful that the game's definitions are its own, it is a mistake to bring definitions from a random discipline to the game and expect them to be accurate. None of the words being thrown around here have universal definitions that can be objectively applied to every subject under discussion.

 

[KdNseer]

As promised, a collection of starting situation screenshots for the new civilizations:

Spoiler :

View attachment 676950View attachment 676951View attachment 676952View attachment 676953View attachment 676954View attachment 676955View attachment 676956View attachment 676957View attachment 676958View attachment 676959

Please do not comment on city names.

Kushan was living in Gansu province,China,about 400 BC or earlier.And 150BC, Huns defeated them,then they migrated to Transoxiana,and conquered Bactria,Hindu Kush area untill Hephthalite,Turky and some other nomads destroyed it.
Maybe we can make Kushans born in Gansu,set a AIwar to make them conquer Transoxiana and Bactria(just like the Phoenicians）,and make barbarians destroy their cities in Gansu and Xinjiang.

 

[Askii2D]

Thank Leoreth, Phoenicea, can use UP (buy units) regardless of civics in 1.17

I suggested Russia to
1) hire production regardless of civics
2) hire production regardless of civics but only in cities with katorga
3) hire production with despotism, or with katorga regardless of civics

katorga was under any rule.
katorga implicates hiring production by people lives.