New Beta Version - August 21st (8-21b)

[Stalker0]

I like the free forge on Zeus idea

 

[Dolen]

Can't wait to try it!

 

[Gazebo]

Statue of Zeus- the tech position is fine but I think you should add a yield or two. It's not a bad wonder but it's not up to par with other classic era wonders IMO.

Heroic Epic- this will be interesting. It still requires a barracks in the city, right? So you still need military theory and a decent population so you can't easily rush it out.

It does, but I’m open to dropping the req.

 

[andersw]

Not sure whats the point of:
"Imperialism Colonialism Reduced Monopoly flat bonus to +3 (was +4)"
The bonus is 4 (now 3) happiness with one and same with 10 monopolys, at the stage when its available its nothing and could just as well be zero.
(way back it used to be a +4 happy/monopoly bonus which was maybe to strong for wide)

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

It looks like my opinion’s in the minority but I’m not a fan of giving every civ a free GG, especially in the ancient era. One of the advantages of investing in early military rushes over valuable infrastructure is beating neighbors to the xp threshold needed for your first GG, which essentially gives you a free promotion and a half’s worth of combat strength to all your units, very valuable in the early game where it’s less about unit diversity and more about the brute strength and numbers of your archers and spearmen to shift a war in your favor (and your army’s so small by this point one GG can cover them all easily). You can still do this by rushing BW, sure, but now the window is much smaller since your opponent can just get a GG of their own to cancel out your bonuses much more easily, and it’s decidedly worse if you want to fight tradition civs (who are tough nuts to crack anyway) who had no intention of grinding out unit xp at all.

If anything I would move that NW back to iron working, and most definitely keep the barracks as a prerequisite.

 

[pineappledan]

The free GG certainly screws with my Macedonia civ. That’s for sure. That custom civ kinda relies on GGs not being passed out Willy-Nilly like this.

Pushing it forward also upsets the AppleCare w.r.t. 4UC, because we have a unique heroic epic. If this tech change is here to stay I’m probably back to the drawing board on that civ; having their unique wonder come that early is too much power and is way too anachronistic

 

[Gazebo]

It looks like my opinion’s in the minority but I’m not a fan of giving every civ a free GG, especially in the ancient era. One of the advantages of investing in early military rushes over valuable infrastructure is beating neighbors to the xp threshold needed for your first GG, which essentially gives you a free promotion and a half’s worth of combat strength to all your units, very valuable in the early game where it’s less about unit diversity and more about the brute strength and numbers of your archers and spearmen to shift a war in your favor (and your army’s so small by this point one GG can cover them all easily). You can still do this by rushing BW, sure, but now the window is much smaller since your opponent can just get a GG of their own to cancel out your bonuses much more easily, and it’s decidedly worse if you want to fight tradition civs (who are tough nuts to crack anyway) who had no intention of grinding out unit xp at all.

If anything I would move that NW back to iron working, and most definitely keep the barracks as a prerequisite.

Free? No, you have to build the wonder, go for the tech, etc. It’s an investment.

G

 

[Bromar1]

It looks like my opinion’s in the minority but I’m not a fan of giving every civ a free GG, especially in the ancient era. One of the advantages of investing in early military rushes over valuable infrastructure is beating neighbors to the xp threshold needed for your first GG, which essentially gives you a free promotion and a half’s worth of combat strength to all your units, very valuable in the early game where it’s less about unit diversity and more about the brute strength and numbers of your archers and spearmen to shift a war in your favor (and your army’s so small by this point one GG can cover them all easily). You can still do this by rushing BW, sure, but now the window is much smaller since your opponent can just get a GG of their own to cancel out your bonuses much more easily, and it’s decidedly worse if you want to fight tradition civs (who are tough nuts to crack anyway) who had no intention of grinding out unit xp at all.

If anything I would move that NW back to iron working, and most definitely keep the barracks as a prerequisite.

Yeah, I can imagine doing some nasty forward settling + citadel land grab combo on an isolated civ. I feel like this has some potential exploitation against the AI

 

[Padre19]

All except SotL have a -1 sight penalty (including Battleships)

Battleships has no PROMOTION_SIGHT_PENALTY_NAVAL promotion.

 

[Aqinu]

"All except SotL have a -1 sight penalty (including Battleships)", I think this a typo (or unintended change), cause is the other way around (SotL has -1 sight penalty and Battleships hasn't)

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Gazebo, which free building will the Statue of Zeus get? Or will it keep the free barracks, maybe get something on top of that?

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

Free? No, you have to build the wonder, go for the tech, etc. It’s an investment.

G

It’s a national wonder, no risk involved (and not that hard to build honestly, especially by stacked tradition capitals as mentioned). If it was moved to SoZ or something that’d be fine (though great wall had a free GG already so maybe not), but as it stands EVERY civ will have a GG by the midancient or early classical era.

 

[Omen of Peace]

If you have Mt. Kilimanjaro, how much movement would your skirmisher consume if it goes up a featureless hill? What about a forest hill?

How does it work with berber cavalry?

And does the Iroquois UA (forests as road) override the innate promotion?

 

[Gazebo]

All except SotL have a -1 sight penalty (including Battleships)

Battleships has no PROMOTION_SIGHT_PENALTY_NAVAL promotion.

Yup but also extra sight. So it is still +1 over frigate.

 

[Gazebo]

It’s a national wonder, no risk involved (and not that hard to build honestly, especially by stacked tradition capitals as mentioned). If it was moved to SoZ or something that’d be fine (though great wall had a free GG already so maybe not), but as it stands EVERY civ will have a GG by the midancient or early classical era.

Timing is critical. There’s a lot of important stuff to build in first 100 turns. Now heroic epic is one of those things, if war is on the menu.

G

 

[saamohod]

What am I doing wrong?
The name of the discussion says 8-21b, while Mega only shows 8-21 (without "b").

 

[Txurce]

Slightly reduced tech penalty (125 from 150)

Gazebo, can the the late-game science slowdown be adjusted so weaponry stays more in line with the intended era?

 

[pineappledan]

I know I’m not in a position to be making demands, Gazebo, but this change to a heroic epic causes lots of problems for me. I am sure you have considered how this change affects Japan’s GWAM bonus and Sweden’s global heel, but it causes very serious balance concerns for three of my mod mods.

If the great general on construction of the heroic epic is here to stay, then I really think that this building should be moved back to Steel. The early great general is a very, very powerful bonus with certain civs and having the morale boost available to all units built in that city so early, I.e. a full era before conscription makes it less interesting as a shot-in-the-arm CS boost.

Lastly, bringing the building even earlier when the icon for the building is raising the flag at Iwo Jima.

Macedon’s entire bill is focused on getting as many great generals as possible. Getting a free one in Ancient is not something I designed the civ around.

Israel gets extra yields for every great work and great tile improvements. A free citadel in ancient is huge.

4UC Carthage has a great general that can turn into a great admiral. This means it has a unit that can scout deep ocean for free in the ancient era.
4UC has a unique heroic epic with bonuses to faith generation; moving it to ancient makes their faith game too strong.

 

[Rekk]

All except SotL have a -1 sight penalty (including Battleships)

All except SotL have a -1 sight penalty (including Battleships)

Battleships has no PROMOTION_SIGHT_PENALTY_NAVAL promotion.

"All except SotL have a -1 sight penalty (including Battleships)", I think this a typo (or unintended change), cause is the other way around (SotL has -1 sight penalty and Battleships hasn't)

Yup but also extra sight. So it is still +1 over frigate.

The patch notes read as if battleships have the same sight as all other ranged naval (base 1). Ships of the Line don't have this penalty and are base sight range 2 (or 3 if considering that they have a special promotion).

His post says that battleships don't have the penalty, and are sight range 2, while Ships of the Line do have the sight range penalty along with sight range bonus and are therefore also sight range 2.

Are battleships supposed to have a sight range penalty?

Why give SotL both a sight range penalty promotion and a sight range bonus promotion? Mandekalu Cavalry don't have both a city damage penalty promotion and a city damage bonus promotion.

 

[Gazebo]

I know I’m not in a position to be making demands, Gazebo, but this change to a heroic epic causes lots of problems for me. I am sure you have considered how this change affects Japan’s GWAM bonus and Sweden’s global heel, but it causes very serious balance concerns for three of my mod mods.

If the great general on construction of the heroic epic is here to stay, then I really think that this building should be moved back to Steel. The early great general is a very, very powerful bonus with certain civs and having the morale boost available to all units built in that city so early, I.e. a full era before conscription makes it less interesting as a shot-in-the-arm CS boost.

Lastly, bringing the building even earlier when the icon for the building is raising the flag at Iwo Jima.

Macedon’s entire bill is focused on getting as many great generals as possible. Getting a free one in Ancient is not something I designed the civ around.

Israel gets extra yields for every great work and great tile improvements. A free citadel in ancient is huge.

4UC Carthage has a great general that can turn into a great admiral. This means it has a unit that can scout deep ocean for free in the ancient era.
4UC has a unique heroic epic with bonuses to faith generation; moving it to ancient makes their faith game too strong.

Just move it wherever you want in your modmod. Seems easy enough. It's only one line of SQL.

G