New Beta Version - August 21st (8-21b)

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Rekk said:
The patch notes read as if battleships have the same sight as all other ranged naval (base 1). Ships of the Line don't have this penalty and are base sight range 2 (or 3 if considering that they have a special promotion).

His post says that battleships don't have the penalty, and are sight range 2, while Ships of the Line do have the sight range penalty along with sight range bonus and are therefore also sight range 2.

Are battleships supposed to have a sight range penalty?

Why give SotL both a sight range penalty promotion and a sight range bonus promotion? Mandekalu Cavalry don't have both a city damage penalty promotion and a city damage bonus promotion.
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It's just a changelog typo. Battleships do not have a penalty.

I can change the SotL code later, but it ends up being the same thing.

G
 
Gazebo said:
Timing is critical. There’s a lot of important stuff to build in first 100 turns. Now heroic epic is one of those things, if war is on the menu.

G
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Sure. But if you don't build it in the first 100 turns you are more or less guaranteed to build it in the next 200. There's a lot of incentive to go for it early if you want (or predict) early war, but if you build it later on it's such good value that it feels a bit too easy. Even if your game is relatively peaceful, a GG gets you extra science and a nice chunk of land (potentially someone else's land).

Before now, the main ways to get a GG were war or certain wonders - which are risk/reward situations. I guess certain social policies can also give you GGs, but there's a large culture cost for adopting a social policy. Constructing a national wonder is a guaranteed payoff for potentially relatively little investment. It makes combat progression towards the same goal feel less worthwhile. Normally I'm really proud when a GG pops from combat (or a wonder) because it feels like I've really earned it.

I'm not saying the way things are is necessarily bad... it's just a big change to understand. The possibility of border gore from citadels that early in the game - or a warmonger AI with a GG attacking in the ancient era - is scary.

I'll admit making the bottom of the tech tree more enticing makes sense - that's a good thing! And the increased minimum population requirement for national wonders might help with balance. I know I should play it through and see how it goes. I guess I just wanted to talk this out a bit so I can make sense of where things are at right now.
 
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One thing I learned quickly on this patch is that Fertility is a bad pantheon for my normal authority play! Got Fertility with my normal 5 city Japan build, happiness plummeted to 20%. Barbs started ravaging 2 of my cities and I lost one to a rebellion.

So....lesson learned!
 
Stalker0 said:
One thing I learned quickly on this patch is that Fertility is a bad pantheon for my normal authority play! Got Fertility with my normal 5 city Japan build, happiness plummeted to 20%. Barbs started ravaging 2 of my cities and I lost one to a rebellion.

So....lesson learned!
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That's surprising. Isn't happiness supposed to be slightly better on this beta, if anything?
 
JamesNinelives said:
Sure. But if you don't build it in the first 100 turns you are more or less guaranteed to build it in the next 200. There's a lot of incentive to go for it early if you want (or predict) early war, but if you build it later on it's such good value that it feels a bit too easy. Even if your game is relatively peaceful, a GG gets you extra science and a nice chunk of land (potentially someone else's land).

Before now, the main ways to get a GG were war or certain wonders - which are risk/reward situations. I guess certain social policies can also give you GGs, but there's a large culture cost for adopting a social policy. Constructing a national wonder is a guaranteed payoff for potentially relatively little investment. It makes combat progression towards the same goal feel less worthwhile. Normally I'm really proud when a GG pops from combat (or a wonder) because it feels like I've really earned it.

I'm not saying the way things are is necessarily bad... it's just a big change to understand. The possibility of border gore from citadels that early in the game - or a warmonger AI with a GG attacking in the ancient era - is scary.

I'll admit making the bottom of the tech tree more enticing makes sense - that's a good thing! And the increased minimum population requirement for national wonders might help with balance. I know I should play it through and see how it goes. I guess I just wanted to talk this out a bit so I can make sense of where things are at right now.
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I doubt a single GG will create border gore. Besides, having GGs running around in the classical period feels, well, era-appropriate, as many of the named GGs in the game were classical warlord anyways.

G
 
Gazebo said:
Besides, having GGs running around in the classical period feels, well, era-appropriate, as many of the named GGs in the game were classical warlord anyways.
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That's true. So far I haven't spotted trouble as such, which is reassuring.

Spoiler Classical :
20190823134951_1.jpg
 
If you fight early, a classical GG may spawn anyways.
Two great generals are better than one, but gaining one general when you had none is better than gaining a second general. So I'd say that glory is better for players that didn't fight in Ancient. The same barracks is better for players who didn't train their units with real combat.

Having more gg around should not be a problem when your neighbors have the same choice.
 
CrazyG said:
He means move after attacking
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Does this then return to previous state from another major naval update two years ago?

Maybe that's a good thing, but somehow more movement on water seemed appropriate.. I think I understand the ai unit detection/targeting issues that came from high movement/move after attack units.. could their movement be limited after attack instead of ended, to keep them a little distinct from land units in their mobility?
 
tu_79 said:
If you fight early, a classical GG may spawn anyways.
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And I like that! It feels like that general is a result of some kind of work - like a series of ongoing conflicts that shape your nation. Maybe your troops won an important battle and their captain was rewarded for his bravery or something.

What I'm trying to make sense of is what the epic producing a GG means in terms of the narrative of my nation. What does that project represent? It looks like a building with a GW slot - like a statue, but the description is of a work of literature, referencing the Odyssey and Beowulf.

And look, I'm not totally against the idea. I'm playing the patch now and some of those anxieties I had have already been allayed. We'll have to see what changes when the barracks prerequisite is removed, but I think it should be OK because there's still a population requirement.

My concern is that my experience of the game may change. Great generals being somewhat rare means you have to be careful how you use them, because you know that if you loose it you're not going to get another one out of nowhere. Getting a general from a project you build feels a bit like some noble bought his son a commission.
 
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Regarding the heroic epic, would it be possible to replace the free GG with a bunch of GG points? Maybe enough to get the first GG - the point is that it would still let you build the wonder to speed up your first or second GG, but this wouldn't result in a significant inflation of GGs/citadels in the late game.
 
How about the epic inspiring someone to strive for greatness as a general? Many classical great classical Greek military leaders read and were taught the Iliad and held it's heroes as examples and idols.
Personally I still don't like the "instant great general" idea thematically. Would more prefer GG points/faster earning GGs
The epic is kind of a weird national wonder anyway... it's physical form is more akin to a great work than a building...
 
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