New Beta Version - December 20th (12/20)

[Recursive]

Something to say about diplomacy in this version.
Iam not sure if this is related to the fact that everyone has a defence pact and in most cases the human not, making it only attractive to the AI to attack the human.
But in general the AI kinda goes crazy in its war declaration against me, if its in industrial age or behind. Peaceful game all day long, good friendship with the neighbors with lots of green diplo modifiers and some turns later they declare war against me with a war pact. Then like every 10 turns another civ joins in the war, even if they are sitting on the other side of the map never be able to reach me with units.
Maybe its realistic, but not really funny to face people which were 200 turns your best friends.

Should be better next version; if not, I can make some more tweaks, depending on the situation.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Should be better next version; if not, I can make some more tweaks, depending on the situation.

Iam sure Iam more attractive as target cause Iam a lonely civ and didnt call half world into defence if someone declares war on me.
Will be probably better in the next version, till then, Iam trying me as warmonger were I can ignore this fact.
Happy to see so much movement in the diplomatic evolution of the AI. Great work.

 

[civplayer33]

I've found another nitpick similar to the Culture compensation on failure to build a Wonder: the Science event...it says something like "You've found a rare plant and analyzing it boosts your research" and it seems to always be the same amount, no matter when in the game it happens. This means that in early game it is a substantial boost giving you multiple turns' worth of Science but since the amount doesn't scale with Era it is absolutely insignificant by the time you reach Industrial. I think the same is true for the "Market day" event and the "Great Harvest" event. Since the negative events (mostly floods that pillage tiles) are still somewhat annoying and the positive events are irrelevant, they don't offset the annoyance anymore, thus making Events overall fairly irrelevant and a nuisance by late game...I feel like, since one can just turn them off, they should be a bit more relevant in late game for those who choose to play with Events. Should I maybe post these two nitpicks to GitHub as feature requests?

 

[General_Drax]

Sadly I shut down all Events a long time ago. civplayer33 nailed it perfectly.

About the warmongering: in my current game (tradition/fealty/artistry/Freedom) in 549 turns (epic pace) I fought only one war vs one of neighbours conquering nothing and just playing on the defense side. Now another declares war on me, I conquered ONE of his city and now i'm the warmonger scourge of the globe =/. They managed to sanction me and declaring war from all sides. Trying to win with a CV seems desperate now. Especially vs the Authority warlords.

Current status of VP: I'm finding exremely difficult to achieve a Victory type outside total war. It seems a lot harder to acquire a victory without massive military power. Either or they consider you weak (tradition = few units) or they sanction you via Congress.

I played with Egypt that I believe it's a good civ for CV, maybe Brazil is better.

Maybe I'll wake Songhai next game and burn all =).

 

[Recursive]

Sadly I shut down all Events a long time ago. civplayer33 nailed it perfectly.

About the warmongering: in my current game (tradition/fealty/artistry/Freedom) in 549 turns (epic pace) I fought only one war vs one of neighbours conquering nothing and just playing on the defense side. Now another declares war on me, I conquered ONE of his city and now i'm the warmonger scourge of the globe =/. They managed to sanction me and declaring war from all sides. Trying to win with a CV seems desperate now. Especially vs the Authority warlords.

Current status of VP: I'm finding exremely difficult to achieve a Victory type outside total war. It seems a lot harder to acquire a victory without massive military power. Either or they consider you weak (tradition = few units) or they sanction you via Congress.

I played with Egypt that I believe it's a good civ for CV, maybe Brazil is better.

Maybe I'll wake Songhai next game and burn all =).

To me this sounds like one of three things:

1. The AI has gotten better, and you need to go down a difficulty level.

2 - The AI has gotten better, and the difficulty handicaps are set too high.

3 - There's an issue with game balance making war way easier than other victories.

The numerous diplo and tactical AI improvements made recently do make it harder to win, so I'm thinking 1 and/or 2, but that's just my opinion.

 

[theMisterRud]

The "Ally backstabs you in Industrial Era after 1000 years of friendship" happened to me as well: Tall Arabia leading in Culture (but not science) with Ottoman on the south; 18 Supply Cap Army used.

I poured a lot of resources in keeping the alliance and than BAM come Industrial and all the world declares on me.

Another point that I would like to address: I would shift City State Influence from City State missions to Envoys: It really sucks when you get diplo maluses because you are suddenly allied with 2 City States without really much pursuing them.

 

[General_Drax]

To me this sounds like one of three things:

1. The AI has gotten better, and you need to go down a difficulty level.

2 - The AI has gotten better, and the difficulty handicaps are set too high.

3 - There's an issue with game balance making war way easier than other victories.

The numerous diplo and tactical AI improvements made recently do make it harder to win, so I'm thinking 1 and/or 2, but that's just my opinion.

Fine. If I'll try another CV maybe i'll go down to King and test the AIs there. I'm not used to Tradition builds so it's possible I made some poor choices with Egypt.

Anyway even on hardest difficulty the AIs should be more consistent. I mean in this game Greece conquered half of the world, destroyed two civilization, vassalized one and the poor Egypt conquered ONE city just to defend itself and it's the enemy number one.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

To me this sounds like one of three things:

1. The AI has gotten better, and you need to go down a difficulty level.

2 - The AI has gotten better, and the difficulty handicaps are set too high.

3 - There's an issue with game balance making war way easier than other victories.

The numerous diplo and tactical AI improvements made recently do make it harder to win, so I'm thinking 1 and/or 2, but that's just my opinion.

Shouldn't it treat other AIs and the human player the same way though? I don't see other AI's getting the whole world declaring war on them every 15 turns despite them conquering as much or more as I do.

 

[TranceBlossom]

I think giving tradition a small buff to unit supply cap would help immensely; no matter how generous you are to the AI, you'll always be seen as a weakling and eventually get declared on simply because you have so few units.

EDIT:

Shouldn't it treat other AIs and the human player the same way though? I don't see other AI's getting the whole world declaring war on them every 15 turns despite them conquering as much or more as I do.

Do AI get a buff to their supply cap? That may be one reason why

 

[Recursive]

Shouldn't it treat other AIs and the human player the same way though? I don't see other AI's getting the whole world declaring war on them every 15 turns despite them conquering as much or more as I do.

AIs get more unit supply on higher difficulties, and Production discounts on units.

There's also the bug causing an unusually high number of Defensive Pacts which may be a factor.

Additionally, you might just be doing really well. If you're too successful it will generate hostility, and other AIs will tend to jump on the bandwagon if you're already at war - if you're considered a major competitor or the other player's war against you is going well, and they don't think they'd lose against the other player.

 

[civplayer33]

I think giving tradition a small buff to unit supply cap would help immensely

Military Power is divided by number of Cities, though, so as Tradition with a lower number of rather large Cities (and more Citizens give more Supply) you should be in the position to build an adequate army for defensive purposes *if* you actually invest in that, which means going not just for all the Culture Wonders but also trying for some of the Supply-increasing ones, which often also help with defense, and not forgetting about military infrastructure and keeping your units more or less up-to-date. Players should be penalized for neglecting their military, after all. This should allow you to survive the DoWs that will, and should, eventually happen when you become successful enough to have a good shot at winning; for those who don't like that mechanism there is still the "no-victory-competition" option Recursive created.

 

[theMisterRud]

I think giving tradition a small buff to unit supply cap would help immensely; no matter how generous you are to the AI, you'll always be seen as a weakling and eventually get declared on simply because you have so few units.

Yeah, given how much people gank on you, Tradition really needs some more supply to cover at least 2 fronts.

 

[usadefcon1]

Yeah, given how much people gank on you, Tradition really needs some more supply to cover at least 2 fronts.

Completing Tradition gives +2 unit supply per era?

 

[ridjack]

Apologies in advance; no internet on PC atm, so can't post screenshots etc. Otherwise, would be doing this as a formal bug report.

I voted the Inca into world congress leadership, and the "We helped relocate" modifier shows up, but it's a bright red negative modifier.

I'm also at war with seven out of fifteen civs, after a mostly peaceful game with very little diplomatic tension. Competely of the blue, and all the declarations were with in roughly the same twenty or so turns.

EDIT: Also realized they declared literally one turn after our DoF ended.

 

[civplayer33]

I voted the Inca into world congress leadership, and the "We helped relocate" modifier shows up, but it's a bright red negative modifier.

That's a bug which is already fixed for the next version.

 

[Recursive]

Something to say about diplomacy in this version.
Iam not sure if this is related to the fact that everyone has a defence pact and in most cases the human not, making it only attractive to the AI to attack the human.
But in general the AI kinda goes crazy in its war declaration against me, if its in industrial age or behind. Peaceful game all day long, good friendship with the neighbors with lots of green diplo modifiers and some turns later they declare war against me with a war pact. Then like every 10 turns another civ joins in the war, even if they are sitting on the other side of the map never be able to reach me with units.
Maybe its realistic, but not really funny to face people which were 200 turns your best friends.

The "Ally backstabs you in Industrial Era after 1000 years of friendship" happened to me as well: Tall Arabia leading in Culture (but not science) with Ottoman on the south; 18 Supply Cap Army used.

I poured a lot of resources in keeping the alliance and than BAM come Industrial and all the world declares on me.

Another point that I would like to address: I would shift City State Influence from City State missions to Envoys: It really sucks when you get diplo maluses because you are suddenly allied with 2 City States without really much pursuing them.

Shouldn't it treat other AIs and the human player the same way though? I don't see other AI's getting the whole world declaring war on them every 15 turns despite them conquering as much or more as I do.

I'm also at war with seven out of fifteen civs, after a mostly peaceful game with very little diplomatic tension. Competely of the blue, and all the declarations were with in roughly the same twenty or so turns.

EDIT: Also realized they declared literally one turn after our DoF ended.

I made some adjustments for next version to fix excessive war declarations and backstabbing; it should be more weighted by actual victory competition and less by weakness now, although being weak is certainly still a substantial factor.

Military Power is divided by number of Cities, though, so as Tradition with a lower number of rather large Cities (and more Citizens give more Supply) you should be in the position to build an adequate army for defensive purposes *if* you actually invest in that, which means going not just for all the Culture Wonders but also trying for some of the Supply-increasing ones, which often also help with defense, and not forgetting about military infrastructure and keeping your units more or less up-to-date. Players should be penalized for neglecting their military, after all. This should allow you to survive the DoWs that will, and should, eventually happen when you become successful enough to have a good shot at winning; for those who don't like that mechanism there is still the "no-victory-competition" option Recursive created.

Military power isn't divided by # of cities anymore, I believe.

Apologies in advance; no internet on PC atm, so can't post screenshots etc. Otherwise, would be doing this as a formal bug report.

I voted the Inca into world congress leadership, and the "We helped relocate" modifier shows up, but it's a bright red negative modifier.

As civplayer33 said, that's a bug. You can fix it as I described in this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...cember-20th-12-20.652983/page-4#post-15625839

 

[civplayer33]

Military power isn't divided by # of cities anymore, I believe.

Hmm, I could swear that in 12-1-1 founding a City reduced your score...at least for the purpose of tributing CSs (the overall military component would decrease).

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Yeah, given how much people gank on you, Tradition really needs some more supply to cover at least 2 fronts.

And progress lacks early game culture, so add there culture for every city? And Authority has a hard time if there are no barbs, so add a permanent barbarian spawn point outside of your borders?
Why does Tradition have to be the jack of all trades? Even the extra hammer for tradition to each city is for me a weird thing, cause now every ancient branch have hammer to city abilities. (I was asking, why not simply one more hammer for the city field was added and everything would be covered, but..... you know..... )

Authority is weak, if you didnt go to war, progress is weak, if you didnt expand much, and tradition is weak versus foreign military ambitions. Its fine.

 

[CrazyG]

With Tradition I sometimes just accept a food production penalty to put extra military units out there. You can also try to use a Great Engineer to build a wonder and get some extra supply.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

With Tradition I sometimes just accept a food production penalty to put extra military units out there. You can also try to use a Great Engineer to build a wonder and get some extra supply.

Using free Great people option for Generals or Admirals to get +2 supply would be also an option.