New Beta Version - June 9th (6/9)

[LukaSlovenia29]

Ultimately it has now just pushed the age of artillery cheese forward.

If I understand correctly, you consider artillery starting with indirect fire cheesing? If so, I'd like to say that I'd be somehow nerfing and thus reducing the "cheese" aspect of artilleries.

 

[Gazebo]

If I understand correctly, you consider artillery starting with indirect fire cheesing? If so, I'd like to say that I'd be somehow nerfing and thus reducing the "cheese" aspect of artilleries.

No, range 3/4 is the issue.

 

[MrStarbuck]

• Ironclad, Destroyer, and Missile Cruiser all require 1 coal (was formerly just ironclad).

Steam-powered missiles?

 

[Lucas A.]

What about NWs from ideologies?
With the changes to t3 tenets (before this version), mainly Palace of Culture and Science seems weak.
I think increasing the modifiers to 25% should be ok.

On Tradition-Sankore, Sankore feels too much Science and no Food for Tradition. I also don't like the free mosque because if you go with few cities and has a chance on this free mosque you don't wanna pick the mosque belief.
An idea I have is if we keep Sankore as Tradition wonder, is to change Sankore to a food-GP oriented Wonder (maybe +food/production in city when you expend a GP), and add +Science when you expend a GP to Tradition (to that policy that gives Culture and GA when you exped a GP) but also reduces the Culture from that policy (to something like +50GA, 25 Science and Culture or +30 of each). This way we reduce a bit of the culture from GP spam.

Edit: (kind off-topic) G, is it possible to add +Religious Pressure from worked Holy Sites? (maybe requires a building, like temple).

 

[Gazebo]

What about NWs from ideologies?
With the changes to t3 tenets (before this version), mainly Palace of Culture and Science seems weak.
I think increasing the modifiers to 25% should be ok.

On Tradition-Sankore, Sankore feels too much Science and no Food for Tradition. I also don't like the free mosque because if you go with few cities and has a chance on this free mosque you don't wanna pick the mosque belief.
An idea I have is if we keep Sankore as Tradition wonder, is to change Sankore to a food-GP oriented Wonder (maybe +food/production in city when you expend a GP), and add +Science when you expend a GP to Tradition (to that policy that gives Culture and GA when you exped a GP) but also reduces the Culture from that policy (to something like +50GA, 25 Science and Culture or +30 of each). This way we reduce a bit of the culture from GP spam.

Edit: (kind off-topic) G, is it possible to add +Religious Pressure from worked Holy Sites? (maybe requires a building, like temple).

You can still get Hanging Gardens.

And no, no pressure from plots improvements.

G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

No, range 3/4 is the issue.

Then maybe reduce artillery range to 2?

 

[PapaRockett]

Then maybe reduce artillery range to 2?

Considering that city attack range can reach 3 in modern(?) era, I think it's necessary to have a siege unit that has 3 range. (Makes sense too, artillery is, well, artillery.)

Gazebo, has policy costs been altered overall, or just the first policy?

 

[kawyua]

Having a 3 ranged siege unit is a bit too strong at that point in the game. I think changing field guns to 2 is well justified. Although, something to compensate would be nice. Siege weapons are expensive. Maybe give field guns indirect fire, too?

 

[DeftlyPlayed]

Hi All,

Was running the Beta prior to this latest one and loved it. Trouble free. Uplded this one earlier today and sad to say trouble, trouble and more trouble. And no I am not interested in blasting the author. I only bring these issues here so they can be fixed and we can get on with enjoying the author's great work.

Playing as Morocco and was a ways into the game when the map would white out once in a while. Not the windows to the sides just the map. And it was intermittent for a while then it came and stayed for a long time. Eventually the map came back but had to sit and wait for a long time.

About this same time game play began to lag seriously. I would click on a unit and tell it to move to another city and it would take forever to carry out the command. Eventually it went into this lag and never came out. I had to quit game play.

Running Windows 10.

 

[ElliotS]

Field guns should have indirect fire free. That way they still make the artilary transition less sudden.

I'm going to need to test this naval unit change. Instinctively I hate it, but I'll see. Not optimistic though, given that ranged units now seem to be exclusively for hitting cities and occasionally poorly placed land units. Now it seems impossible to take even moderatly defended cities with a purely naval force, which is a HUGE nerf to every naval civ. If crossbowmen and cannons can rip you apart from the safely of 2 range then you need a land invasion force. RiP England.

Actually many cities only have 1 or two tiles you can hit them from now. That's so worthless...

Well, let 's see I guess.

 

[CrazyG]

So Sainthood was supposed to be per every 10 followers, and you were just fixing a typo?

I can't make a reasonable argument against nerfing field guns. I would suggest dropping their cost a little bit if they only have 2 range though, those things are expensive.

I didn't like how strong dromon were, but my gut tells me frigates should have 2 range. I'll have to see

 

[intelli]

Pretty much all the above.

Indirect fire for field gun and withdraw for naval ranged feels like a bare minimum compromise. Also feel that frigates should really be 2 range.

 

[tu_79]

It won't happen this version, but we'll see.

Anyways, update inbound. Some stuff from ilteroi, and more balance changes from me. The naval one is something I've been tinkering with a while now, and I'm finally ready to say that it is time.



Link: https://mega.nz/#!eI0RUAzY!dAg1skulh0E0pXjN2S3y75A0Sj-tos5AdOsN_SmKUsw

G

Man, you are releasing betas faster than I can setup games!

"Indirect fire for field gun and withdraw for naval ranged feels like a bare minimum compromise. Also feel that frigates should really be 2 range."

It would be a steep increase in power if artillery gets indirect fire and extra range at once. I support giving indirect fire to field gun.

EDIT: By the way, why are yields disappearing in map view? I love to see what my tiles are producing.

 

[Gazebo]

Field guns should have indirect fire free. That way they still make the artilary transition less sudden.

I'm going to need to test this naval unit change. Instinctively I hate it, but I'll see. Not optimistic though, given that ranged units now seem to be exclusively for hitting cities and occasionally poorly placed land units. Now it seems impossible to take even moderatly defended cities with a purely naval force, which is a HUGE nerf to every naval civ. If crossbowmen and cannons can rip you apart from the safely of 2 range then you need a land invasion force. RiP England.

Actually many cities only have 1 or two tiles you can hit them from now. That's so worthless...

Well, let 's see I guess.

I can get behind the indirect fire point.

Naval ranged units are a coastal menace. If naval units become too squishy an increase to CS/RCS is the best alternative. I really think range 1 makes naval conflicts more interesting. Think of it this way - land warfare has essentially 5 classes of units: melee, mounted, ranged, siege, skirmish. Naval has 2: ranged and melee. There are more 'layers' to land war, thus extending the range from 1-3 is more nuanced and allows units to breathe. Naval units at range 2-3 have too much room to breathe, especially at renaissance. Going to 1-2 compresses naval combat and makes screening/skirmishing with melee units far more important.

G

 

[Charos]

Naval units at range 2-3 have too much room to breathe, especially at renaissance. Going to 1-2 compresses naval combat and makes screening/skirmishing with melee units far more important.

Philosophically, I agree. It definitely adds a lot of strategic depth to naval combat. However, the massive gameplay impact is that this makes it almost impossible to take cities with your navy until Cruisers. Maybe the answer is to beef up the unit strengths to make up for being able to bombard with fewer than half of the ranged ships as before. Maybe it's to give the extra range at frigates instead of cruisers. Or maybe we need a specific "siege" ship class, with low RCS, longer range, and a big inherent city bonus, like a floating catapult line.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Charos: you posted about exactly my thoughts on this just as I was about to. Great minds?

However, I shall refrain from balance thoughts this way or that, at least until I've finished a game or two with heavy naval focus. See what goes on in practice.

 

[ElliotS]

I can get behind the indirect fire point.

Naval ranged units are a coastal menace. If naval units become too squishy an increase to CS/RCS is the best alternative. I really think range 1 makes naval conflicts more interesting. Think of it this way - land warfare has essentially 5 classes of units: melee, mounted, ranged, siege, skirmish. Naval has 2: ranged and melee. There are more 'layers' to land war, thus extending the range from 1-3 is more nuanced and allows units to breathe. Naval units at range 2-3 have too much room to breathe, especially at renaissance. Going to 1-2 compresses naval combat and makes screening/skirmishing with melee units far more important.

G

I don't know. I already use melee ships a ton for ship v ship combat. Two melee boats will kill a ranged boat in 1 turn for minimal damage almost every time, and melee boats will win a 1v1 against ranged boats most of the time.

Is it possible to give a 200% bonus to naval damage to a city when all the coastal tiles it has are occupied by boats or something? It would already take a while to take cities with a fleet of 2 range boats sometimes.

Now you'll often have only 1 or two tiles to attack a city from, and can't shoot away the ranged units bombarding you.

If we don't add a whole new line I think this will disable the ability to take most cities with boats.

And if that's gone, then there's almost no need for naval combat. Many games you could literally just ignore ever making a single boat. Even if you're warmongering you can simply move your troops over to their land at some time in peace.

 

[Charos]

I'm also not sure that naval units being a coastal menace is at all a bad thing. That's the point of them. They can't engage with armies unless they're right next to the sea, which is a massive restriction. Naval dominance, owning the sea, is supposed to be a huge advantage. Neutering ranged ships removes that advantage. I'm a fan of making ships more interesting and strategic, but I'm afraid this will simply make them irrelevant.

 

[tu_79]

I don't know. I already use melee ships a ton for ship v ship combat. Two melee boats will kill a ranged boat in 1 turn for minimal damage almost every time, and melee boats will win a 1v1 against ranged boats most of the time.

Is it possible to give a 200% bonus to naval damage to a city when all the coastal tiles it has are occupied by boats or something? It would already take a while to take cities with a fleet of 2 range boats sometimes.

Now you'll often have only 1 or two tiles to attack a city from, and can't shoot away the ranged units bombarding you.

If we don't add a whole new line I think this will disable the ability to take most cities with boats.

And if that's gone, then there's almost no need for naval combat. Many games you could literally just ignore ever making a single boat. Even if you're warmongering you can simply move your troops over to their land at some time in peace.

I do really like the idea of blockades. Something like - 33% to City defense when blockaded.

 

[bigcat88]

In my current game I tried to capture coastal city for a 15 turns... Only 2 little dromons can attack it from coast side...
Gazebo, maybe we need make Range promotion available after Bombardment 2?