New Beta Version - March 1st (3-1)

Status
Not open for further replies.
CrazyG said:
I think archers serve a support role, the best army would have archers and warriors. If playing defensively composite bowmen often have a better tech position than spearmen.
Click to expand...

OK, I think I understand. I like composite bows, I have no issue with them :).

It's more the early game when deciding what to build can be difficult. Intuitively I want to build archers because they take a tech to unlock and require more hammers. At the moment though I tend to go 3 warriors before building I start building archers.
Stalker0 said:
Agreed: Warrior + archer > 2 warriors > 2 archers
Click to expand...

That's true! What confuses me is that 1 archer on it's own isn't much better than 1 warrior. Say I have 3 cities and 4 units to defend them (against barbs mostly but also being wary of early war). I like to think 2 warriors and 2 archers would be the strongest choice, but I'm currently unsure if that is the case. I wonder if I'm not using my archers well.
tu_79 said:
Having a pantheon that boost lakes should increase the value for lakes, I should think, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Click to expand...

Even without the pantheon lakes give strong base yields, right? Not as good as improved resource tiles but at least as strong as improved non-resource tiles (and don't require improvement).
tu_79 said:
Can you post your religious choices?
Click to expand...

I'm a bit self-conscious about my religious choices - I know some of them are non-optimal, but I like the flavour/themes.

Pantheon: Goddess of Springtime
Founder: Way of Transcendance
Follower: Co-operation
Bonus: Inspiration
Enhancer: Syncretism
Follower: Pagodas
Reformation: Inspired Works

Springtime works rather well with plantations monopolies so I'm happy with that for now. In the past I've founded with Protection as well, and I like the theme of Renewal but found using it annoying unless I am playing The Iroquois. Once upon a time I founded with Love, but in hindsight the yields from it were really not very good. I would take Nature but it seems super niche. I like Earth Mother, Craftsmen, and Sea for the relevant luxury monopolies.
I like Transcendance in that the production/gold/food boost allows me get wonders upon entering a new era in almost instantly, e.g. Hagia Sophia and Himeji Castle.
Co-operation is a bit average. It does work nicely with Transcendance (food upon new era causes city to grow, which then grants more instant yields) and the growth bonus from Temple of Artemis.
Inspiration is actually rather nice, the :c5culture: helps with building wonders in particular and I like the :c5faith: on specialists too.

Syncretism is OK. Extra :c5production:/:c5science:/:c5faith: appeals to me a lot, particularly in my capital.
Pagodas are not super strong but they are OK. I like the building IRL. Sometimes I take Mandirs but I like the yields from Pagodas more, even if they don't increase religious pressure. I tend to not to take buildings before enhancing because it takes time/investment to get them going which I would rather use spreading or enhancing my religion first.
Inspired Works does very well with my playstyle as I tend to have a lot of great person tile improvements near my capital and many great works.

When choosing my bonus belief I also considered a second founder (e.g. Divine Inheritance or Ceremonial Burial) or enhancer (e.g Abode of Peace, Sacred Calender, Prophecy). I even considered taking the Protection pantheon because I like the +hp on heal. Part of the reason I didn't go with a second founder/enhancer is that I was struggling to spread enough to reform my religion (or get much benefit from Abode of Peace). I wanted something that would help me get to enhancing/reformation and scale well with my cities as I like Progress.

I have tried Scolarship (I like the theme and it scales well) and Council of Elders in previous game but honestly they felt a bit cheese-y/OP.
 
Last edited:
For comparison, here's another game with the same belief and policy choices but an easier start. Neither of my direct neighbours founded this time and I had a bit of room to expand, so I enhanced and reformed my religion pretty quickly. Caught up in techs and policies fairly soon so I was able to build more wonders as well. Had difficulty keeping up in militarily at first, but had many friends in the early-game. When my neighbours did choose to attack, Portugal bore the brunt of it rather than me. I've also been funding and donating technology to the weaker civs to make conquest harder for the warmongers :).

Spoiler :
20200313083850_1.jpg
 
Asterix Rage said:
@Aqinu
Same with Seaport. Ocean and Coast tiles get bonuses.
Ocean and Coast tiles are different
Click to expand...

I don't see the issue. Can you be more specific (if your are referring to the "Ocean" from tooltip where in the screenshot where mentioned River, Lake, Ocean yields, "Ocean" applies for Coastal also)
 
Aqinu said:
I don't see the issue. Can you be more specific (if your are referring to the "Ocean" from tooltip where in the screenshot where mentioned River, Lake, Ocean yields, "Ocean" applies for Coastal also)
Click to expand...

Ocean tiles are not Coast tiles.
Civ5Screen0173.png


It's confusing for new players.
 
Last edited:
Asterix Rage said:
Ocean tiles are not Coast tiles.
View attachment 548886

It's confusing for new player.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you want to change. It's very clear in the description (seaport, fixed for plant) that it's for both. Make on github an issue cause I can't help you...

If you want the tooltip for hydro plant to be, ocean: 2 2 2 and coast: 2 2 2, make an issue cause this I can't do.
 
Last edited:
Don’t harbour/lighthouse just say “sea tiles”?
 
JamesNinelives said:
For comparison, here's another game with the same belief and policy choices but an easier start. Neither of my direct neighbours founded this time and I had a bit of room to expand, so I enhanced and reformed my religion pretty quickly. Caught up in techs and policies fairly soon so I was able to build more wonders as well. Had difficulty keeping up in militarily at first, but had many friends in the early-game. When my neighbours did choose to attack, Portugal bore the brunt of it rather than me. I've also been funding and donating technology to the weaker civs to make conquest harder for the warmongers :).

Click to expand...
So..... many...... roads..... :crazyeye:
 
Turn 350 in my Deity Byzantium pacifist game, standard settings (no ruins, tech trading, events or research agreements), standard size & speed, oval. AIs were the same as in my Portugal game, so Siam (my neighbour to the west), Carthage (my neighbour to the south), Russia (southwest), Mongolia, China, Egypt and Sweden.

I'm calling this game a wrap, because it's just clicking next turn at this point. I have 72 techs, 5 more than Egypt (that entered the Information era on t349), 4 great scientists that haven't been popped yet for science, I'm about to adopt the Iron Curtain tenet of Order (equaling the number of social policies as Egypt and giving me oodles of production for my 3 Spacefactory cities), have 2 GDRs and otherwise modern army, DoF with Siam and no one is near a CV (Egypt is influential with only 2 civs, far from others) or DV (Siam and Russia have 20 votes each).

My impressions are that if you get a religion in this game, you're basically on your way to winning it mainly because the AI is not doing a good job defending its religion, which then makes it poor at spreading it. I could have won the game much sooner if I abused selling strategic resources for exorbitant prices and if I abused the religious spreading even more against the AI founders and if I founded a corporation (only had one monopoly and China snagged my corporation because I was still catching up at that point).

What helped me was also that the world never banded together against me even when I clearly pulled ahead. Russia and Egypt only declared war on me once in Medieval era, China in the Renaissance, and only Carthage and Mongolia declared on me later (due to bribes, but never mounted a serious attack). I was DoW-ed quite a few times in the Classical era, but never really faced a big army or navy. They never proposed sanctions on me, Siam never broke its DoF with me, they all (even after denouncing it) were happily selling me luxuries for around 10 gpt. The game could have been harder if there was a big runaway, but even then I'd be confident in winning because of the AIs passivity in religion and banding together against the leader. I also don't know what the AI is doing about counter-spying, but I didn't lose a single spy in this game (which was helped because I avoided spying on rationalism civs).

So the game feels easier than before. The AI hasn't been that good in managing religion in its cities for a while, but I think it worsened considerably in this version. Still, I've seen some impressive stuff from the AI even in this version, so once the religious AI management returns at least to previous levels, once the AI gets better at working against the game leaders (militarily, diplomatically or economically) and once espionage is changed a bit, then it will be even better than it has ever been. So good job and thanks to everyone involved!
 
AI seems to find trading cities to them "impossible" pretty often now. Even if you want to trade their capital back to them, "impossible". This was with Vasals, so I don't know if that's related.
 
LifeOfBrian said:
So the game feels easier than before. The AI hasn't been that good in managing religion in its cities for a while, but I think it worsened considerably in this version.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind there is a bug with inquisitors so the AI being poor at defending their religion doesn't really reflect their strategy being worse. Github says 'fixed for upcoming version.'
LifeOfBrian said:
I could have won the game much sooner if I abused selling strategic resources for exorbitant prices
Click to expand...

Similarly I think this is a known issue rather than intended design. I get the impression Gazebo is looking into it, based on this conversation:
https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/6323
 
Upcoming diplomacy changes for next version
Code: 
Diplo Types
Each civ now has a "diplo type" based on their leader flavors. All leader flavors are randomized by +/- 2 every game, so instead of civs always having a specific "type", they might occasionally change between games.

  The calculation is as follows:
    Conqueror weight = Boldness + Offense + Expansion (+2 bonus if UA gives war bonuses)
    Diplomacy weight = Diplo Balance + Diplomacy + Gold (+2 bonus if UA gives diplo bonuses)
    Cultural weight = Wonder Competitiveness + Wonder + Culture (+2 bonus if UA gives culture/tourism bonuses)
    Science weight = (10 - DoF Willingness) + Science + Growth (+2 bonus if UA gives science bonuses)

    The highest total determines the diplo type. If there is a tie, the leader's UA bonus breaks the tie.
    If there is still a tie after that, the order of priority is: conqueror, diplomat, cultural, scientist.

    You can tell which diplo type a civilization is by examining their Opinion modifiers (must use Transparent Diplomacy if their visible Approach is FRIENDLY).
    Conquerors - apply greater penalties for reckless expansion, Wonder spamming and territorial disputes, but also a larger bonus for no contested borders (stacks with the extra bonus for Ancient/Classical eras)
    Diplomats - apply greater penalties for City-State competition, but also a bonus for no City-State competition (if you haven't performed a coup against them)
    Cultural - apply greater penalties for Wonder competition and Wonder spamming, but also a bonus for no Wonder competition (if you aren't Wonder spamming)
    Scientist - apply an Opinion penalty for being ahead of them in tech, scaling with your tech lead (up to -30), but also a bonus for being equal or behind them in tech (penalty is maxed out if you've built spaceship parts)

    A civ's diplo type also affects their Approach calculation, competitor weight and DoF/DP willingness
    - they will apply "strategic victory weight" for the associated victory condition, even if they're pursuing a different one (and even if that victory condition is disabled).

Reckless Expansion
- Base opinion modifier is now 20. Once the modifier is there, every additional city you have (more than the AI) increases the penalty by 10.
- Additional penalty for conqueror civs increased to 20 (was 15)
- Threshold is set at 2x global average cities, when your military strength is lower than the AI's
- These values can be modified in (1) Community Patch > Core Files > Core Changes > DiploOpinionWeights.sql

Wonder Spamming
- Re-added diplo penalty for spamming World Wonders (fixed to no longer apply to conquered Wonders, only constructed ones)
   Along with additional tech lead check in the Approach calculation, should help rein in AI runaways
   Penalty applies if you have constructed at least 3 more World Wonders than the global average *of living civs who have built Wonders*
   Base opinion modifier is now 20. Once the modifier is there, every additional Wonder you have built (more than the AI has built) increases the penalty by 10.
   Additional penalty for conqueror and cultural civs increased to 20 (was 15).
   These values can be modified in (1) Community Patch > Core Files > Core Changes > DiploOpinionWeights.sql

GetBestApproachTowardsMajorCiv
- Rewrote approach update function (performance improvements, and removed dumb Firaxis update order; was added this version, but I didn't post a final changelog)

- For every approach except NEUTRAL, the AI will rank the approach weights for each player, and subtract weight from all players that aren't #1.
This makes the AI less likely to adopt the same approaches towards many players, or constantly focus on the same player throughout the whole game
(was added this version, but I didn't post a final changelog)

- AI should be significantly more aggressive overall & more responsive in the early game (removed a lot of superfluous/unjustified friendliness)

- Toned down AI aggression for reckless expansion a bit, but still fairly high. To avoid the reckless expansion modifier, build a strong military.

- AI more punishing of military/economic weakness

- AI more hostile towards players with a tech lead

- AI no longer cares which players are the "most valuable DPs" if they can't actually make a DP with those player(s)

Misc
- Code cleanup & spacing fixes for readability
- TR plundering no longer affects the new military rating mechanic (as of this version; warscore is still affected as normal)
- Improvements to AI Morocco's plundering logic
    Will no longer plunder TRs from genuine friends (DoF/true FRIENDLY approach) or their master (if content)
    More likely to plunder enemy TRs
    When faking friendship, they will exploit their UA to plunder trade routes with no diplo penalty when out of sight (notification shows up as "Barbarians did it")
    - If you suspect they are faking friendship, you can have your units keep watch over your trade routes to other cities (or at least watch near Morocco's territory/units) to make them less likely to exploit this.

I've decided to use the Diplomacy AI Development thread for further diplomacy feedback (no use in having two threads, and this one has my design goals): https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/diplomacy-ai-development.655040/

Feel free to post any feedback, questions, comments, etc. on the diplo AI there, it's always welcome. :)
 
Last edited:
great. Is there an estimated release date? thanks in advance.
It would be of great help against quarantine and pandemic. :grouphug:


HeathcliffWarriors said:
Upcoming diplomacy changes for next version
Code: 
Diplo Types
Each civ now has a "diplo type" based on their leader flavors. All leader flavors are randomized by +/- 2 every game, so instead of civs always having a specific "type", they might occasionally change between games.

  The calculation is as follows:
    Conqueror weight = Boldness + Offense + Expansion (+2 bonus if UA gives war bonuses)
    Diplomacy weight = Diplo Balance + Diplomacy + Gold (+2 bonus if UA gives diplo bonuses)
    Cultural weight = Wonder Competitiveness + Wonder + Culture (+2 bonus if UA gives culture/tourism bonuses)
    Science weight = (10 - DoF Willingness) + Science + Growth (+2 bonus if UA gives science bonuses)

    The highest total determines the diplo type. If there is a tie, the leader's UA bonus breaks the tie.
    If there is still a tie after that, the order of priority is: conqueror, diplomat, cultural, scientist.

    You can tell which diplo type a civilization is by examining their Opinion modifiers (must use Transparent Diplomacy if their visible Approach is FRIENDLY).
    Conquerors - apply greater penalties for reckless expansion, Wonder spamming and territorial disputes, but also a larger bonus for no contested borders (stacks with the extra bonus for Ancient/Classical eras)
    Diplomats - apply greater penalties for City-State competition, but also a bonus for no City-State competition (if you haven't performed a coup against them)
    Cultural - apply greater penalties for Wonder competition and Wonder spamming, but also a bonus for no Wonder competition (if you aren't Wonder spamming)
    Scientist - apply an Opinion penalty for being ahead of them in tech, scaling with your tech lead (up to -30), but also a bonus for being equal or behind them in tech (penalty is maxed out if you've built spaceship parts)

    A civ's diplo type also affects their Approach calculation, competitor weight and DoF/DP willingness
    - they will apply "strategic victory weight" for the associated victory condition, even if they're pursuing a different one (and even if that victory condition is disabled).

Reckless Expansion
- Base opinion modifier is now 20. Once the modifier is there, every additional city you have (more than the AI) increases the penalty by 10.
- Additional penalty for conqueror civs increased to 20 (was 15)
- Threshold is set at 2x global average cities, when your military strength is lower than the AI's
- These values can be modified in (1) Community Patch > Core Files > Core Changes > DiploOpinionWeights.sql

Wonder Spamming
- Re-added diplo penalty for spamming World Wonders (fixed to no longer apply to conquered Wonders, only constructed ones)
   Along with additional tech lead check in the Approach calculation, should help rein in AI runaways
   Penalty applies if you have constructed at least 3 more World Wonders than the global average *of living civs who have built Wonders*
   Base opinion modifier is now 20. Once the modifier is there, every additional Wonder you have built (more than the AI has built) increases the penalty by 10.
   Additional penalty for conqueror and cultural civs increased to 20 (was 15).
   These values can be modified in (1) Community Patch > Core Files > Core Changes > DiploOpinionWeights.sql

GetBestApproachTowardsMajorCiv
- Rewrote approach update function (performance improvements, and removed dumb Firaxis update order; was added this version, but I didn't post a final changelog)

- For every approach except NEUTRAL, the AI will rank the approach weights for each player, and subtract weight from all players that aren't #1.
This makes the AI less likely to adopt the same approaches towards many players, or constantly focus on the same player throughout the whole game
(was added this version, but I didn't post a final changelog)

- AI should be significantly more aggressive overall & more responsive in the early game (removed a lot of superfluous/unjustified friendliness)

- Toned down AI aggression for reckless expansion a bit, but still fairly high. To avoid the reckless expansion modifier, build a strong military.

- AI more punishing of military/economic weakness

- AI more hostile towards players with a tech lead

- AI no longer cares which players are the "most valuable DPs" if they can't actually make a DP with those player(s)

Misc
- Code cleanup & spacing fixes for readability
- TR plundering no longer affects the new military rating mechanic (as of this version; warscore is still affected as normal)
- Improvements to AI Morocco's plundering logic
    Will no longer plunder TRs from genuine friends (DoF/true FRIENDLY approach) or their master (if content)
    More likely to plunder enemy TRs
    When faking friendship, they will exploit their UA to plunder trade routes with no diplo penalty when out of sight (notification shows up as "Barbarians did it")
    - If you suspect they are faking friendship, you can have your units keep watch over your trade routes to other cities (or at least watch near Morocco's territory/units) to make them less likely to exploit this.

I've decided to use the Diplomacy AI Development thread for further diplomacy feedback (no use in having two threads, and this one has my design goals): https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/diplomacy-ai-development.655040/

Feel free to post any feedback, questions, comments, etc. on the diplo AI there, it's always welcome. :)
Click to expand...
 
danymatrix said:
great. Is there an estimated release date? thanks in advance.
It would be of great help against quarantine and pandemic. :grouphug:
Click to expand...

Having taken a recent trip, I am under quarantine orders as well (thankfully not symptomatic) so I can relate, heh.

You'd have to ask @Gazebo for an estimated release date.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

jarcast2
[Custom Civ] [Ladies in Charge, vol. 2: Anacaona] Jarcast and KaoticKanine's Taino for VP
Replies
4
Views
964
jarcast2
jarcast2
jarcast2
[Custom Civ] Jarcast's The Navajo for VP
Replies
18
Views
3K
Relatyve Mind
R
hokath
[Extension] Enlightenment Era for VP (4.22)
2 3 4
Replies
72
Views
8K
jarcast2
jarcast2
T
Tier 2 social policies: Fealty a must-have in most situations?
Replies
6
Views
1K
randomnub
R
jarcast2
[Custom Civ] JFD's Prussia for VP
Replies
17
Views
1K
Relatyve Mind
R
Back
Top Bottom