New Beta Version - May 24th (5-24)

[Gazebo]

Hey all,

New beta inbound. I've run multiple test games on this one with no noticeable issues - human hands may change this, but its quite stable as far as I can tell.

Changes
    Bugfixes/Performance
        Fixed cached status for blockaded tiles
        Fixed delegate cache issue for WC votes
        Further improvements to renewal deal model (AI will now actually queue up all renewal offerings every turn, instead of just picking one)
        Tactical AI adjustments
        City Citizen AI adjustments
        Overhaul of AI peace logic mechanics
        Adjusted strategic resource evaluation
        Cleaned up goody hut code
        Reduced AI haggling valuation for humans
        
    General
        Reduced late-game tech costs slightly (10%)
    UI
        'Plus' icon added to City Banner if city has a minefield
    Religion
        Founders
            Apostolic - +20 food (Was +30); now +2faith, scaling with followers
            Noble Truth - now 30 tourism; +10 influence
            Council of Elders, now 20 (Was 30), city following cap now 25 (was 15)
            
        Pantheons
            Ancestor Worship - boosted Council bonuses to +2 (was +1), reduced faith per pop to 5 (Was 4)
            God King - increase Palace bonuses to +2 (Was +1)
    Buildings
        Grand Temple
            grants Temples +2 Gold instead of +2 culture
        Scrivener's Office
            now +1 faith per ally (was +2)
            
    Spies
        Science theft mission now scales value based on tech difference with target (+/- 50% value)
        Pillage action now a level 0 action (was level 2); reduced difficulty of mission

Online as of 4:30PM CST. Not savegame compatible.

Link: https://mega.nz/folder/2Jdw3aQT#Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA

Cheers,
G

 

[Stalker0]

Buildings
Grand Temple
grants Temples +2 Gold instead of +2 culture
Scrivener's Office
now +1 faith per ally (was +2)

I always appreciate that the modders are watching our threads....but this just feels too snap a judgement. We are just getting into some debates about this, and its clear not everyone agrees that a change is even necessary. Further, this has a big impact on the culture balance of the game (7 person city, that;s a minimum - 14 culture, probably more like 17 culture when %bonuses are factored in). at that point in the game, that's a big deal.

I feel like we have to let some of these ideas breathe a little bit (and yes this even includes my frequent ideas and postings), I mean the thread in question is not even 3 days old. A person goes away for the weekend and suddenly there is a balance change that they didn't even know was being discussed. I think its one thing if its feedback of a change in the newest beta, as the goal is to get rapid feedback and try to narrow down proper values. But for long standing features or bonuses, i think we need more than a 3 day thread and a few agreements before we just uproot something that has been in place for years.

 

[Gazebo]

I always appreciate that the modders are watching our threads....but this just feels too snap a judgement. We are just getting into some debates about this, and its clear not everyone agrees that a change is even necessary. Further, this has a big impact on the culture balance of the game (7 person city, that;s a minimum - 14 culture, probably more like 17 culture when %bonuses are factored in). at that point in the game, that's a big deal.

I feel like we have to let some of these ideas breathe a little bit (and yes this even includes my frequent ideas and postings), I mean the thread in question is not even 3 days old. A person goes away for the weekend and suddenly there is a balance change that they didn't even know was being discussed. I think its one thing if its feedback of a change in the newest beta, as the goal is to get rapid feedback and try to narrow down proper values. But for long standing features or bonuses, i think we need more than a 3 day thread and a few agreements before we just uproot something that has been in place for years.

it’s a beta, that’s what betas are for. Besides, faith has been on my radar for some time, the AI can really put out an enormous amount of faith units

 

[Denn]

FINALLY

 

[Stalker0]

Besides, faith has been on my radar for some time, the AI can really put out an enormous amount of faith units

If that's your main concern, than this change will actually do the opposite. The human is the only one I see consistently go for CS play early in the game (aka before Renaissance), AIs only tend to get CS through a quest here and there, but I never see AIs rack up CS allies like I do. Therefore, this change will barely affect the AIs faith, but will have a noticeable impact on the human.

The Ancestor Worship change is interesting. So off a Stonehenge opener I will now get an immediate +3 faith and culture (assuming a min 5 pop in your capital). That's a pretty solid start, comparable to Beauty in a lot of ways (which I already think is a very solid pantheon). So I like the potential here. God-King I'm less sure about. Immediate faith is always strong, so it should definitely help it found, but those yields still scale awfully slow. Worth testing at least.

I don't think Noble Truths was ready for a total nerf yet either, at least not that strongly. I don't mind removing the era scale on the influence, but 10 influence a conversion is garbage, that's not going to do anything. I would much rather have 25 influence that never scales again....as that is a neat alternative to diplo units.

 

[Pal Laki]

"Adjusted strategic resource evaluation"

What was the target of the adjustment? Currently i cant even get 1 gpt from any civ early game for 1 horse. Please enlighten me

Edit: Its Immortal 22 Civs epic speed if that matters.

 

[Rafs]

Looks interesting, I just wish the culture from the grand temple was maybe split or moved around (even if it made no sense a in theory, like moving the culture to +1 on amphiteaters and +1 on universities or something), not changed to gold.
I feel most of the time culture is touched, it's often to reduce the amount you can get, making the gap between culture civs/luxury bigger every time.

 

[Gazebo]

If that's your main concern, than this change will actually do the opposite. The human is the only one I see consistently go for CS play early in the game (aka before Renaissance), AIs only tend to get CS through a quest here and there, but I never see AIs rack up CS allies like I do. Therefore, this change will barely affect the AIs faith, but will have a noticeable impact on the human.

The Ancestor Worship change is interesting. So off a Stonehenge opener I will now get an immediate +3 faith and culture (assuming a min 5 pop in your capital). That's a pretty solid start, comparable to Beauty in a lot of ways (which I already think is a very solid pantheon). So I like the potential here. God-King I'm less sure about. Immediate faith is always strong, so it should definitely help it found, but those yields still scale awfully slow. Worth testing at least.

I don't think Noble Truths was ready for a total nerf yet either, at least not that strongly. I don't mind removing the era scale on the influence, but 10 influence a conversion is garbage, that's not going to do anything. I would much rather have 25 influence that never scales again....as that is a neat alternative to diplo units.

Noble still era scales.

 

[Gazebo]

"Adjusted strategic resource evaluation"

What was the target of the adjustment? Currently i cant even get 1 gpt from any civ early game for 1 horse. Please enlighten me

Edit: Its Immortal 22 Civs epic speed if that matters.

They won’t trade if they don’t need it.

 

[Stalker0]

Noble still era scales.

sorry I wasn't clear on my post. I meant I wouldn't mind if era scaling was removed as the nerf, but lowering the initial value like that really lowers the appeal of doing early spreads to CS.

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

I'm still having the 'pillaged tiles don't actually get repaired' issue from the last patch.

Also I built a farm on a plains and it was reduced to simply (I guess we unfarmed it?)

 

[azum4roll]

"Adjusted strategic resource evaluation"

What was the target of the adjustment? Currently i cant even get 1 gpt from any civ early game for 1 horse. Please enlighten me

Edit: Its Immortal 22 Civs epic speed if that matters.

Good thing, if they already have horses or don't need any they shouldn't pay for more.

 

[Gazebo]

sorry I wasn't clear on my post. I meant I wouldn't mind if era scaling was removed as the nerf, but lowering the initial value like that really lowers the appeal of doing early spreads to CS.

By Medieval it is worth 20 influence per spread, which is not insignificant.

I'm still having the 'pillaged tiles don't actually get repaired' issue from the last patch.

Also I built a farm on a plains and it was reduced to simply (I guess we unfarmed it?)

Not sure what you're referring to.

G

 

[ColonelCarter]

I'm still having the 'pillaged tiles don't actually get repaired' issue from the last patch.

Also I built a farm on a plains and it was reduced to simply (I guess we unfarmed it?)

Are you sure it wasn't the event that pillages farms and gives them -2 food for a time? A non-freshwater, no adjacency Plains farm would only be 2 food, ending at 0 with the event penalty.

 

[Stalker0]

Already liking the new Ancestor Worship. I can push it off a Stonehenge rush, and now my satelittes build council first as a sort of "mini-steep". combined with Tradition 4, I'm hitting 2 of all the core yields early with one building, just very solid. I like this as an alternative to Beauty, but in different ways. They both have their advantages, which is perfect to me.

Also found its a good platform for a Oracle Push. With beauty you get the GE earlier and can go for an earlier wonder. But Ancestor gives both the science and culture so that with a Tradition 3 going to the GE, you can bag the Oracle right around turn 100, which is generally my cutoff for the wonder on Immortal.

So yeah, really enjoying the change so far.

 

[Boombar]

extra faith from monuments and shrines given by events should be removed in my opinion. there is already too much free faith with no drawbacks. or at least make those choices tougher

 

[skodkim]

extra faith from monuments and shrines given by events should be removed in my opinion. there is already too much free faith with no drawbacks. or at least make those choices tougher

Nooooo Really enjoy these events. If we have too much faith then please make them give some other yield.

\Skodkim

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

Are you sure it wasn't the event that pillages farms and gives them -2 food for a time? A non-freshwater, no adjacency Plains farm would only be 2 food, ending at 0 with the event penalty.

Yes, my bad. I had the -2 event on multiple cities.

 

[pineappledan]

Glad to see ancestor worship finally getting some love.

Apostolic is now 2 per follower. Now we just need to add 22 and drop the spread action. We’re slowly getting there

 

[AndreyK]

We are saying that we have too much faith - and we are making that Grand Temple still provides 2f to temples, and change 2 culture to gold per temple. I would leave the culture and drop faith from 2 to 1