New Beta Version - May 24th (5-24)

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Here is an interesting datapoint, something that has shown how much the Tourism paradigm has been shifted by the change in mechanics.

Spoiler :

upload_2021-5-26_5-8-24.png

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I am playing America (OG America btw, as I have been playtesting PADs version but this one is standard). I am playing the typical Tradition + Artistry + Rationalism.

Iroquois are Authority + Fealty + Imperalism. How then do they have such a higher base tourism bonus than I do? I should have many more GWs, I get tourism on universities, and America has a big tourism multiplier.

The answer.... is the zoo. Look at that forested Iroquois start. He has double my cities (and about 2.5x my population)... which grants him a big bonus with his Arenas, but mostly he has sucked all of the continents forests, and with it gained a massive bonus with zoos. Now he does lose a bit of that, as his larger civ is given him a bigger penalty than mine, but ultimately he has more than made up for it.

So here's showing a way for a Wide Player not going Tradition + Artistry to be dominating the tourism board. Its a new age!
 
Standard Communitas_79 as Immortal America (Tech Trading On). Forfeit on Turn 308.

Spoiler :

upload_2021-5-26_5-22-42.png



This was an interesting game in that it was a real rise and fall kind of series. I had a strong start, used tutelary gods to bag Stonehenge and the Pyramids.... and was even able to get HG with a GE. I had a good amount of land to work with, and built up a solid base. I was in a solid 3rd place position for much of the early game.

I went noble truths this game to give it a spin. With Byz and the Celts on my borders providing such a strong wall of pressure, I focused on CS spreads first. I did a tech rush to Education to get the 20 influence per spread and secured the two nearby CS while eroding Byz's pressure. However, meanwhile Byz pressure combined with fealty to create a wall of religious death, and my city quickly started to succumb.

I made a very very poor decision with my beliefs this game, opting for Thrift (normally good for America with the focus on their plot buying) and Symbolism (because more GPP is great, and I figured the 15% pressure removal would help me keep some of the CS I converted). However I should have recognized early on that against Byzantium that is just not going to happen.... and noble truths is a belief where I'm going to be spending so much faith outside of my civ, that I'm not going to invest internally....meaning I should have know my followers would erode. As such, I should have absolutely gone for religious buildings and syncretism if it was an option. Ultimately though, I was never able to reform, Byz had everywhere around me, and could easily outconvert me at every step. It was so bad that even with Thift, at one point with just half my supply filled and all of my TRs running....I still had a -150 GPT deficit! That just shows how little thrift was doing for me this game.

With the arrival of my minutemen and Byz distracted by a big war with the Mayan, I saw an oppurtunity...as their capital was not that far from my border. And so I declared. Byz had a 4 way DP (which seems to be a bug, they are not supposed to be able to have that many together). And so I now faced the Celts, Persia, Byz, and Arabia (which was far enough away that it didn't matter...so it was really 3 enemies). And so the bloodbath begin. I killed wave after wave of troops near Varna....and wave after wave kept coming. For a while, I hilariously would kill two Persian units that landed every round, and just like clockwork two new units would land.... for like 5 turns. And though my minuteman were worth 10 of their units....they had 10 units and more. Meanwhile the Celts made a very impressive push against Boston, and I barely held it (it came down to me killing their last melee unit so they couldn't take it). Over 20 turns and I finally took Varna, but it took another 30 turns before Byz would end the war. My war weariness went through the roof, my happiness tanked, barbs swarmed my capital, killed my TRs and ransacked me. It took making 2-3 public works in every city before my happiness stabilized above 34%. The real demoralizing moment was when Varna flipped back because of revoltion! I took it back immediately, but had to remake the courthouse and walls over all again! The war was ultimately "won".....but at tremendous cost.

Though I recovered, my numbers started to slip. My score fell behind, and the AIs tech and culture started to get a little bit more ahead with each turn. At this point I was incredibly poor for some reason, I had to shift to wealth to hold off bankruptcy.

Ultimately I just ran out of gas. As I was replenishing my forces, Persia redeclared along with its vassal China. Though my minutemen were well promoted, Persia was landing 3-4 fusiliers at a time...some of them with the defense promotions from their immortal days. I just couldn't kill them quickly enough, and my forces were pushed back....and he took Ormus. Now Theodora has declared again, and my eastern line is just too thin to stop her. Now getting pinched from both sides, I can see the writing on the wall. Further, Iroquois has humilated me by having double my base tourism while going Authority, Fealty, and Imperalism (aka the least tourism focused policies you can think of). The power of zoos!

My mistake was in not respecting the coastline. I had seen that Persia had a good navy and had plenty of amphibious troops to troop from the first war....and though I secured my eastern border with a good citadel line, I did not take the effort the put forts and citadels on my coast. So once the amphibious landings began....I had nothing solid to hold them against, and was forced back.

I was simply outplayed this game. GG.

My notes:
  • This run of Noble Truths didn't impress me much, but its hard to say when I was so religiously steamrolled by Byz and made some poor belief decisions...so I'll have to try that again.
  • The new Ancestor Worship is pretty cool off of a Stonehenge rush (I did it in my last game). You turn the council into the Steele, the first building in every city that gives you both culture and faith...its nice.
  • I don't know if the new spy scaling wasn't working, or if its still painfully weak.... but honestly I felt that spies almost did nothing to help me science wise this game. First my initial spies leveled every slowly this game, so it took a long time before I could even use them for stealing. And once I did....yeah compared to old school tech stealing the values are laughable, even when stealing from a person with 6-7 techs more than you.
  • The pillage mission just never feels worth it right now, there is always something I would rather be doing with my spies.
  • The Schriever's Office nerf doesn't really affect the religious race very much imo....its rare for me to have both the office and an ally up fast enough to be a factor. However, it does matter for the spreads to follow, this game I didn't have any early CS so didn't notice one way or the other.
  • My capital was weirdly unhappy early in the game, for a long time. I did have a lot of farms so it must have just been the growth...but yeah very noticeable, normally a Tradition capital is happy as can be, but not this game. Eventually I corrected it and it never came back.
  • I am so incredibly happy that my cities can actually build units while unhappy....please god I hope we never go back. Its just better. I am noticing the increase in war weariness, it definitely makes a difference. I don't think its necessary yet, but if we did want to make adjustments I could be comfortable if the global unhappiness penalty to production was increased, that might be reasonable. Not saying we should do that, just noting its an option if we need more penalty somewhere.
 
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The answer.... is the zoo. Look at that forested Iroquois start. He has double my cities (and about 2.5x my population)... which grants him a big bonus with his Arenas, but mostly he has sucked all of the continents forests, and with it gained a massive bonus with zoos. Now he does lose a bit of that, as his larger civ is given him a bigger penalty than mine, but ultimately he has more than made up for it.
I think 2:tourism: per forest is silly to be honest. Great Works only get 3:tourism:. It's been in place for a while too but I guess people just don't pay attention to it.
 
I completely rewrote peace logic for this version. I look forward to feedback on this; an encouraging start! :)
It's really good, much better then before
Also I like that the AI's don't but strategics that they don't want
 
I think 2:tourism: per forest is silly to be honest. Great Works only get 3:tourism:. It's been in place for a while too but I guess people just don't pay attention to it.

I agree. Would it make more sense if the zoo provided just 1 tourism per forest/jungle tile?
 
I certainly agree that the game shouldn't be based around Deity but the default version which should be Prince, then ajust from there. The point about highest levels like Deity is they should be really hard, & if people are struggling then go down a level, not try to have the game changed so they can win at that level. I think the problem is the majority of players playing the mod are very experienced & good at the game due to its age, so it is understandable most of the comments come from them.

I debug on King.
 
I also always play King.

If I'm designing new things and checking playability, I need to be reasonably assured I will survive until late game.

That being said, I had always assumed Emperor play was the desired level, and I could probably do okay at that difficulty if I wanted to challenge myself, since the AI doesn't challenge me at King, but that's not why I play civ.
 
I agree. Would it make more sense if the zoo provided just 1 tourism per forest/jungle tile?

Or maybe tourism for unimproved forest tiles? I wish upgrading everything had more trade-offs, and that natural tiles could be an ok late game alternative between universities, zoos, and other perks from religion or policy. Maps are beautiful before improvements.
 
Or maybe tourism for unimproved forest tiles? I wish upgrading everything had more trade-offs, and that natural tiles could be an ok late game alternative between universities, zoos, and other perks from religion or policy. Maps are beautiful before improvements.
I would argue though that is just very "un Civ like". Civ is about development, its the whole premise of the game.
That would cut into the National Parks for VP.

I no longer use that mod, because the current zoo pumps forest/jungle up so much already. It's still there as a back-up idea if we could lower the Zoo's power a bit, but wanted a later boost to re-up on Marshes/Forests/Jungles
 
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So how are the new deals?
  • Last game I tried numerous strategic deals with the AIs. I only successful managed a good deal once with the Iroquois, who offered me 3 GPT per iron, and was willing to buy 3 iron for 9 GPT (so no bulk discount expected which was nice). Beyond that I could only offer strategics just to fine tune other deals, as even 1 GPT was not possible most of the time. So how did that feel? Honestly its probably the most realistic, I think most AIs just had the strategics they needed, so why buy them for extreme prices? It definitely makes gold matter a lot more. It might be worth making them always at least 1 GPT....just to give players more deal making options and something to do with them.
  • Luxs felt mostly the same. The AI was a little stingier with them but not much, and I think lux prices are generally in a good place.
  • Tech Trade prices are still pretty low when you consider what you are buying. I can generally get a tech for ~65 GPT (aka 3250 GP)....a bit more or less depending on what kind of tech.
  • World Map prices are insane, you would think I was giving them a map of every civs underground bunkers or something for what AIs are willing to pay.
 
I completely rewrote peace logic for this version. I look forward to feedback on this; an encouraging start! :)

It seems the AI is a bit more reluctant to vassal now even when war score is 100 - is this a change? Seems like it would make sense for an AI to offer vassaling earlier, as they can rebel later on and still try to win that way.
 
It seems the AI is a bit more reluctant to vassal now even when war score is 100 - is this a change? Seems like it would make sense for an AI to offer vassaling earlier, as they can rebel later on and still try to win that way.

That shouldn't happen unless one of your cities is in significant danger and none of theirs are.
 
Played a bit with this version and must say that it seems stable :woohoo:

It does however seem that a good number of fixes have been made since release and as I'm gonna start a new game I'd like to hear if we can expect them to be released in a new hotfix?

\Skodkim
 
Played a bit with this version and must say that it seems stable :woohoo:

It does however seem that a good number of fixes have been made since release and as I'm gonna start a new game I'd like to hear if we can expect them to be released in a new hotfix?

\Skodkim

Fixes are minimal, mainly just little tweaks. It'll be savegame compatible.

G
 
Just noticing a possible oddity, something for others to watch for. In the last 3 games all civs have hated the notion of Global Peace Accords, and love Casus Belli. Am I just leaving in a world of blood thirsty savages all the time, or is there something else going on?

Spoiler :

upload_2021-5-26_16-10-34.png

 
Just noticing a possible oddity, something for others to watch for. In the last 3 games all civs have hated the notion of Global Peace Accords, and love Casus Belli. Am I just leaving in a world of blood thirsty savages all the time, or is there something else going on?

It's because technically it is bad for everyone since it increases their maintenance costs, doesn't mean they'll vote for it though since they know it would benefit others. This should be clearer once the new changes have happened.
May still change it but also I made this thread for these sorts of issues: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/world-congress-ai.669358/
 
My Immortal game is going much much easier than my Deity ones did. At the vague start of Medieval I'm basically even in techs and policies with the AI and I feel really powerful.

I played Byz, got a Tundra/Plains start and moved one space towards more Tundra along river, went Monument->Stonehenge and Wheel-Trapping. I did start near a hut, and got quite a few more huts leading to having a super Scout this game which was a big help, it even tributed a lot of places for 20-40%. I got a couple Tundra deer, took Stars and Sky, and I was off to the races.

I went down Tradition very quickly, taking 5 well fortified cities and founding first by quite a while, all the AIs founded after t100. Took Holy Law/Apostolic/Veneration for rapid returns of :c5faith::c5food::c5science::c5gold: and I started comboing really ridiculously, there were just storms of policies and techs and great people for a while and it was like riding a monster wave.

Eventually Rome declared me on the same turn as allying the border CS, it was very scary as my army was just 2 Swords, 2 Horses, the super Scout and a couple Spears. At my capital the two swords were holding almost alone and across the saltwater sea I was fighting with the two horses and the scout. I even had a third theater against the CS with one spear in a no walls coastal city vs their spear and galley. My cities never took too much damage but it still felt very perilous, I was on the edge of being overwhelmed in any theater for a few turns.

Nonetheless I was able to hold while I bulked out with some Composites, the war is still going on a long time later but it has turned hard and now I have some Cataphracts out. The Peace logic appears much more stubborn as it's been longer than 15 turns and Rome's even being pressured by Egypt on his other side and he refuses to peace out. Meanwhile I enhanced and reformed with Symbolism/Orders/TTGOG going for a high :c5faith:/:c5greatperson: fusion reactor; the Orders are already firing pretty hard it's crazy. I opened Fealty, then Artistry, and I plan to finish the middle trees with the policies for specialists to get both :c5culture::c5science:.

Overall from this position the game seems like a high percentage win, it's really amazing the difference between Immortal and Deity, though it's possible this was a really nutty start too.
 
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