New Beta Version - May 24th (5-24)

[Solic]

I disagree with the statement that we have too much faith and some others did too, so that should be polled if taken for fact.

I did agree that culture was too valuable of a yield that you would pick up a temple for its culture and not its faith, so I'm happy with this change. Maybe an extra culture should show up on amphitheaters though to not have less culture overall.

 

[tothePAIN]

There are certain yields that it feels bad to lose - mainly culture and science. So losing culture off temples without culture showing up elsewhere just feels like it slows down the game.

I also overall disagree that there was too much faith. The only real incidental faith is from scrivener's but that's been nerfed now.

Overall, I also think that we get a lot of feedback from Deity players... and the game should be balanced around Emperor, not Deity. The culture can be worked around easier for Deity players than Emperor.

 

[Recursive]

Overall, I also think that we get a lot of feedback from Deity players... and the game should be balanced around Emperor, not Deity. The culture can be worked around easier for Deity players than Emperor.

It's hard to make adjustments if people don't speak up.

 

[Solic]

Well for once I couldn't seem to abuse AI being not so smart on peacing out immediately after being bribed into war with me and winning it easily. Investing almost nothing in my army really cost me to the point that I decided to tap out for this match.

It seems the AI really gets their wonders earlier now as well. I save scummed to get Pyramids and could no longer go monument -> shrine -> pyramids.

 

[Stalker0]

Went Noble Truths this game to see how it goes. A few notes:

• I do agree its very easy to get to Medieval by the time the spread to CS becomes a true thing. You can focus on internal spreads or to a foreign civ first, and then go to CS once the scaler increases.
• So in this scenario, I have finished my initial spreads. I am against Byz and Celts, so spreading against them right now is just not worth it, way too much foreign pressure. I could keep spreading into my CS....gaining 40 influence (basically an emissary) at the cost of delay my enhancement 5 turns. Eh...I think the enhancement is worth pushing first. That feels like a decent balance, the influence is decent but not worth respreading to a CS in medieval when I still have other faith business to do.

Spoiler :

 

[Stalker0]

One slight annoyance. I don't mind that most of the time the AI won't pay much for strategics, that's fine. However, the right screen shows the horse icon....which normally suggests that's something the AI wants. Don't tell me you want something if you aren't even willing to pay 1 GPT for it.

Spoiler :

 

[DeAnno]

Deity is really difficult this patch, and all the gold exploitation in the earlygame seems patched up. I might dial down to Immortal for a game. I really like the mouthfeel of these changes though.

 

[Stalker0]

Went Noble Truths this game to see how it goes. A few notes:

• I do agree its very easy to get to Medieval by the time the spread to CS becomes a true thing. You can focus on internal spreads or to a foreign civ first, and then go to CS once the scaler increases.
• So in this scenario, I have finished my initial spreads. I am against Byz and Celts, so spreading against them right now is just not worth it, way too much foreign pressure. I could keep spreading into my CS....gaining 40 influence (basically an emissary) at the cost of delay my enhancement 5 turns. Eh...I think the enhancement is worth pushing first. That feels like a decent balance, the influence is decent but not worth respreading to a CS in medieval when I still have other faith business to do.

Spoiler :

View attachment 597816

So a few more notes:

• Byz has the second highest culture in the game, and I was able to go to Familiar with 2 spreads. So the tourism still feels good and powerful, but I don't think its OP at least from a base yield standpoint. The only strong advantage to tourism right now is TR, and these spreads are seriously concerning from a diplomatic standpoint, in fact I fully expect Byz to declare on me.
• Unlike Apostolic, Noble Truths has an issue where a big pressure is right next to you, as I have in this case with Byz. While this is theory gives me great tourism, it also means my cities are getting flipped....and while I can flip them back it gives me nothing, where something like Apostolic would keep getting yields. If I had been able to get it, it would have probably been best to get syncretism, to help me accept that my civ is not holding out well against the foreign religion, even with churches to back me.

 

[DeAnno]

it would have probably been best to get syncretism, to help me accept that my civ is not holding out well against the foreign religion, even with churches to back me

More and more I think the nature of the religion game is your cities hover around the 51% mark for a huge period of the game. It makes me feel like per follower beliefs are worse and Syncretism is a good general use pick.

 

[Sgtslick]

Deity quite a bit harder with the trading nerf and happiness change. I like it

 

[Recursive]

Well for once I couldn't seem to abuse AI being not so smart on peacing out immediately after being bribed into war with me and winning it easily. Investing almost nothing in my army really cost me to the point that I decided to tap out for this match.

I completely rewrote peace logic for this version. I look forward to feedback on this; an encouraging start!

 

[Stalker0]

I am sooooooo thankful that I can now build military units even while unhappy. Here is a game where I'm doing ok on global happiness but I can't keep any of my satelittes happy (aka common Tradition problems). But I am still able to build an army to hold off the build 3 way war I have going on thanks to the change. I love it!!!!

Spoiler :

 

[tommytoxen]

I am sooooooo thankful that I can now build military units even while unhappy. Here is a game where I'm doing ok on global happiness but I can't keep any of my satelittes happy (aka common Tradition problems). But I am still able to build an army to hold off the build 3 way war I have going on thanks to the change. I love it!!!!

Spoiler :

View attachment 597821

aw, this would solve my current game's problem. my rating is like 43% and i'm struggling to scrape together military units now because of it. think i'll update to this version soon then once im done with this game, i'm still on 4-14.

 

[Sgtslick]

My patheon that gives +1 happy for city on river is sweeet as! Jealous?

 

[azum4roll]

One slight annoyance. I don't mind that most of the time the AI won't pay much for strategics, that's fine. However, the right screen shows the horse icon....which normally suggests that's something the AI wants. Don't tell me you want something if you aren't even willing to pay 1 GPT for it.

Spoiler :

View attachment 597817

Horse icon just means you have horses to sell.

So a few more notes:

• Byz has the second highest culture in the game, and I was able to go to Familiar with 2 spreads. So the tourism still feels good and powerful, but I don't think its OP at least from a base yield standpoint. The only strong advantage to tourism right now is TR, and these spreads are seriously concerning from a diplomatic standpoint, in fact I fully expect Byz to declare on me.
• Unlike Apostolic, Noble Truths has an issue where a big pressure is right next to you, as I have in this case with Byz. While this is theory gives me great tourism, it also means my cities are getting flipped....and while I can flip them back it gives me nothing, where something like Apostolic would keep getting yields. If I had been able to get it, it would have probably been best to get syncretism, to help me accept that my civ is not holding out well against the foreign religion, even with churches to back me.

You aren't supposed to convert with Noble Truths, so they shouldn't hate you. Try losing missionary strength through attrition first if they're converting.

Yes I hate this exploit mechanism.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm 8 techs behind the Maya, here's what the science steal situation looks like with a level 3 spy:

Spoiler :

With 1 turn travel and 5 to establish, its 12 turns or 20 SPT. That's not nearly enough to help me catch up.

 

[youngsteve]

Overall, I also think that we get a lot of feedback from Deity players... and the game should be balanced around Emperor, not Deity. The culture can be worked around easier for Deity players than Emperor.

I certainly agree that the game shouldn't be based around Deity but the default version which should be Prince, then ajust from there. The point about highest levels like Deity is they should be really hard, & if people are struggling then go down a level, not try to have the game changed so they can win at that level. I think the problem is the majority of players playing the mod are very experienced & good at the game due to its age, so it is understandable most of the comments come from them.

 

[General_Drax]

I certainly agree that the game shouldn't be based around Deity but the default version which should be Prince, then ajust from there. The point about highest levels like Deity is they should be really hard, & if people are struggling then go down a level, not try to have the game changed so they can win at that level. I think the problem is the majority of players playing the mod are very experienced & good at the game due to its age, so it is understandable most of the comments come from them.

Uhm ... I'd say King for reference difficulty. As an Emperor/Immortal player I'm agree that most if not all of the players playing VP regularly are quite expert already.

Beside those players are the ones that test the mod the most and help bug hunting.

Replayability is the core of the mod and if I won easily with a civ on Emperor I try Immortal with the same civ ... and get trashed. That's the fun !

 

[DeAnno]

The point about highest levels like Deity is they should be really hard, & if people are struggling then go down a level, not try to have the game changed so they can win at that level.

A lot of the recent balance adjustments are due to people playing on Deity and exploiting X-very-exploitable-thing extremely hard so that they win on Deity in spite of all the AI bonuses. For a long while the most significant X centered around abusive deals with the AI but that has been (largely) corrected now. There has also been nerfing of some very good Founder beliefs that could get out of control, most notably Apostolic which had caused hi-jinx in various forms for a long time. Add to that the new spy system discourages the old Deity meta of "sort of keep up in culture by selling your soul; let tech get away from you then fix it with spies" because spies can't fix it anymore.

Between all these things, and also some improvements to the AI tile governor speeding up AI play, Deity is quite hard now imo. You can still get a tiny bit of quick free gold from silly early tributes, but usually that is not much more than a bit and nowhere near the massive amounts deals used to generate.

 

[Jarru]

Would be cool feature I think if pressing "What will make this deal work" would cause AI offer max gold per turn they can offer - when trading to AI lux or strategic resources.