New Beta Version - September 25th (9-25)

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Still fairly new to the whole VP thing yet I learned pretty quick that happiness was something to be kept an eye on. I don't like going negative but as long as it doesn't reach -10, I should be able to pull back out of it. The big solution I discovered is to pop lock cities, especially early on when there are not the tile improvements that provide the necessary yields. It is counter-intuitive to pop lock cities, however. So much is tied to for every X citizens that one wants to keep growing to gain more of those yields. Then again, I had a few situations where growing actually improved my happiness because I had the tile yields available but not enough food to be able to work them all. Growing to another citizen allowed that additional tile to be worked and boom happiness fixed, at least for that city.

Too bad we cannot take workers and make entertainment specialists that provide happiness boosts as we could in Civ 3.

Thinking on that, would it be possible for some buildings to provide a specialist slot that when worked gives happiness or additional reduction to specific needs? It would be like a temp boost while working to bring the happiness back up in that city. Sure one could work the happy specialist all the time but they wouldn't be getting any great people by doing so. The goal would be to work it only as needed as there are better places to have a specialist. However, I'm not sure how the AI would handle it. I'd be afraid that they'd just work all the happy slots instead of any of the others.
 
I was just wondering... How'd you manage that overflow system in Epic or Marathon? Would you lose less happiness every turn? The same happiness, but every other turn...? Because in slower game paces you might be more limited to how much you can do/build in the same turns.

If this is the path you take (which is the one I prefer from the two G has suggested), I think new messages/notifications (whatever you call those messages that appear on the right side of the screen at the beginning of your turn) might come in handy, such as:

- The happiness within your empire is decreasing dramatically, check for your city needs and make countermeasures! (when your current happiness is +20? higher than the upcoming values).
- The happiness within your empire seems to have stabilized, but don't let your guard down! (when your current happiness is 5 or less higher than the upcoming values, though I guess this message would also appear if your empire was sitting at -40 happiness, and that'd be bad ^^u).

You could also include some permanent kind of advice in the tooltip of Happiness value, something on the line of: be warned, some happiness swings are more prone to happen the more cities you have, due to city needs!

Edit: Oh, Gazebo already thought about notifications.
 
Nothing tells them to right now either - with the buffer, I can introduce notifications for rising/lowering happiness and the top UI can say 'hey, look, your happiness is in decline!' It'll be comparable to how war weariness works right now - there's a target value (the real value) and the buffered value. If a change can never exceed, say, +/- 3 happiness per turn, players would in fact have a few turns to both realize and course-correct. Saying they won't have a warning or wouldn't be able to change it is arguing in bad faith.

You can't course correct happiness in a few turns. That's madness, I genuinely can't believe you're suggesting this, it's like we're not even playing the same game or something.

When you get one of these events people are talking about - the drops from +20 to -40 - it's not something a few turns can fix. What are you even supposed to do in those few turns to fix it? To fix a sudden happiness drop, you either need to tech all the way to a new building - that can be 30, 40 turns away - or drastically increase the amount of yield-providing buildings - also 30, 40 turns away.

This is why I'm arguing this point so strongly. When was this last time you observed a new player having these problems? For me, it was last week. I know where I'm coming from. You won't be able to give them sufficient time to change course unless you make the buffer so large it is meaningless. The critical sign that they need to reduce growth needs to come earlier; or alternatively there needs to be some mechanism to reduce Pop (hence: migration, food penalty, just instant death of Citizens/"famine", etc.) I'm not a stickler for any one of those; I'm open to any or all of them being tested. Even the status quo is preferable to a buffer.

Anyone trying to justify a buffer has the burden on them to explain how severe infrastructure problems can be fixed inside of 10-15 turns. I've not seen a single person address this point - not you, not @Stalker0, not @LukaSlovenia29.

Edit: also, 'I have better things to do with my time' is a terrible way to treat people, like me, who spend our spare time making a game for you.

I said I have better things to do with my time than argue for stuff I don't believe in. Please stop asserting I am arguing in bad faith, it's not true.
 
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To fix a sudden happiness drop, you either need to tech all the way to a new building - that can be 30, 40 turns away

This right here is the disconnect. You are saying that a player who has built all of their needs buildings still has massive unhappiness.

In my experience that is not the case (it was a few versions ago but not since happiness was retuned). Unhappiness is because i have not taken the time to build those need reducing buildings. So I can course correct simply by switching to those buildings. I have not ever had to stop growth to correct my happiness after the tuning from a few versions ago.

That said, I am not playing on the largest maps with thst many cities. It is possible this issue is unique to a very city heavy style
 
I think what we need is just an information showed to player on their screen that projects how happiness going to be for the next few turns. I don't have it cooked yet but perhaps some kind of city-specific or nation-wide number of ratio between number of citizen and their needs. Or it could be making some kind of easier version of happiness needs, you know, things that displayed when you go on city screen and shows you "unhappiness from poverty: -2. Needs: 14.57". For me, personally, it's a habit to check these out sometimes in a while just to get a grip what kind of infrastructure I forgot to build in each city. Reducing unhappiness is more effective than collecting happiness IMO.

I think by easily showing these numbers in the UI, players will hopefully be able to sense potential unhappiness swing. The idea is that don't be in a position when for example, needs from poverty is too high for some period of time.
 
You can't course correct happiness in a few turns. That's madness, I genuinely can't believe you're suggesting this, it's like we're not even playing the same game or something.
.

Crab, this statement is why it can be difficult to get behind your argument, it makes you sound angry and emotional instead of logical. It also makes it sound personal.

We can (and I believe are) having a reasonable debate on the topic, and I’m taking your point seriously. But we really don’t need these statements in future debates, it does not help your cause
 
@Stalker0, you're not a bad player, though. You're a pretty good one. Most of us who post here are and that gives us a particular perspective. I doubt you have very many unhappiness issues, and the ones you do have are trivial ones that can be fixed like that.

Imagine you never played VP, only Vanilla, and you come to VP. Instinct says: must grow! Must grow! As long as I have spare happiness, I must grow! You're at +20 Happiness. Therefore, you are furiously pushing for growth, that's what you've been taught. You go up a tech, and you hit a critical point where all of Gold/Science/Culture/etc. end up being needed slightly more. -4, -5 happiness hits all of your Cities. You have 12 cities. That's -50 to -60 happiness in a turn. Can needs buildings fix it? No! You tripped multiple yield requirements. You'd have to build a Constabulary AND a Zoo AND an etc. Constabularies alone are slow to build; they can be 10-11 turns in a fairly high Production city, and will normally be more. Then you have to do a Zoo on top of that? And the Poverty one on top of that? And the Illiteracy one on top of that?

A buffer doesn't fix this. You can't possibly build all that infrastructure in the time for a buffer - unless you make the buffer period so large as to render happiness pointless. In fact, a buffer can make it worse, because while the buffer is active, your growth is still positive, and you're an ex-Vanilla player. You have no idea that growth at +20 Happiness can be a bad thing. The end result is that when the buffer catches up, you're actually in a worse position, because nothing kicked the brakes on growth earlier.

EDIT: That's true, I take that back. I was rather wound up by Gazebo implying I was arguing in bad faith, though. It was both untrue and unpleasant.

EDIT2: @SpankmyMetroid, do you have the save from the other Happiness thread where dropped 100 happiness in a single turn? It was turn 311 according to the log. As an experiment, we could give that save to everyone here and see how quickly they manage to fix it.
 
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I know next to nothing about how the happiness system actually works, so forgive me for my ignorance, but what if we made it so that only one need can rise for a certain period in a city by 1?

Eg. My city has grown, I get Distress/Poverty/Boredom/Illiteracy needs all rising by 1. But what if, only one of them rises (eg. Distress), by order of magnitude, and you get a warning in your city that 5 turns later some other unhappiness need will surface. If my Distress needs rose by 2, there will be a 5 turn gap between each point of unhappiness.
 
This right here is the disconnect. You are saying that a player who has built all of their needs buildings still has massive unhappiness.

In my experience that is not the case (it was a few versions ago but not since happiness was retuned). Unhappiness is because i have not taken the time to build those need reducing buildings. So I can course correct simply by switching to those buildings. I have not ever had to stop growth to correct my happiness after the tuning from a few versions ago.

That said, I am not playing on the largest maps with thst many cities. It is possible this issue is unique to a very city heavy style

I play wide and I tend to run into unhappiness spirals late game, even with all the infrastructure available to cities. The way needs works, you will sometimes just have less average culture or science compared to the tall juggernauts of the world, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

EDIT2: @SpankmyMetroid, do you have the save from the other Happiness thread where dropped 100 happiness in a single turn? It was turn 311 according to the log. As an experiment, we could give that save to everyone here and see how quickly they manage to fix it.

Sure have at it. Here's the github post which has the autosave. In the original save, you'll notice a drastic drop the turn of starting the save... then you can choose to (easily) build the UN, but at the cost of more unhappiness since you're switching off production to science focus for a few turns in most of your cities. Things get worse from then on out (dropping from -40 to -70)... but eventually they stabilized. The second post was savescummed at the last autosave (301) and the spike happened earlier on turn 309 for some reason (I think this is the one I kept playing with). Don't forget it's the 9/15 hotfixed version.
 
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And that's literally real life, the system is realistic. One day your people are living happily and tomorrow you find out someone invented a way to treat poverty and crime and everyone is mad at you now.
 
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I know next to nothing about how the happiness system actually works, so forgive me for my ignorance, but what if we made it so that only one need can rise for a certain period in a city by 1?

Eg. My city has grown, I get Distress/Poverty/Boredom/Illiteracy needs all rising by 1. But what if, only one of them rises (eg. Distress), by order of magnitude, and you get a warning in your city that 5 turns later some other unhappiness need will surface. If my Distress needs rose by 2, there will be a 5 turn gap between each point of unhappiness.
JFD has included something like this in his JFDLC mod. Is this what you mean?
 
I'm just going to put my theory out there.

Your needs are affected by 4 things. The first is growth. You can stop growing if you have to. It might hurt your empire, but its an option that you have a lot of control over.

The second is your own buildings. An issue I run into is if I already have a stock exchange, I can never reduce poverty again. So if I'm going for a science victory, I'm unable to ever reduce poverty and each new tech means my citizens need more gold. Logically, I better be way over the mark on poverty right now or I'm screwed. The are enough new buildings being unlocked from ancient to medieval for a dynamic happiness to work quite well over than time period. In industrial and modern, there is not.

The second is the median value. You cannot really control this. It is somewhat realistic though. If everyone else has more gold, my people are upset about not having enough gold. I think we can afford to have 1 factor you don't control.

The third factor, and a factor which was a late addition, is technology. You cannot stop researching techs, barring absurdity such as selling your science buildings (which will lower your happiness from illiteracy anyways). This is what tends to screw your happiness in the late game. You invent ballistics and your people are suddenly impoverished. I invent biology and suddenly they are bored. The problem here is I don't get more culture with every tech, only like 1 in every 10 techs has a boredom reduction, or a poverty reduction, or an illiteracy reduction. So if I have boredom, my only way to reduce that is to research towards the stadium, which means I have to discover 7 new techs all of which cause even more boredom.

Tech increasing unhappiness works just fine for the early parts of the game, however I'm seeing 0 complaints about happiness from ancient to medieval. Part of the reason it works out alright here is because there are so many buildings and other things being unlocked that almost all techs have something that fights at least one kind of unhappiness. I think around industrial era (where all happiness complaints occur) its a bad feature though. I can stop growing temporarily to deal with happiness issues, I cannot stop discovering techs.

Also I don't like distress. If you are missing hammers, you are already short on the buildings that fight unhappiness. Food causes you to grow so its weird, the food aspect just makes specialists heavy strategies better IMO. The only city that has lots of food but isn't growing to match that is working many specialists.

PS- if you are constantly having happiness problems, take inspiration every game. When happiness is a factor its uncontested for the strongest follower belief.
 
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vt0OdUe.png



My civ's happiness is a reflection of my own.
 
You can't course correct happiness in a few turns. That's madness, I genuinely can't believe you're suggesting this, it's like we're not even playing the same game or something.

When you get one of these events people are talking about - the drops from +20 to -40 - it's not something a few turns can fix. What are you even supposed to do in those few turns to fix it? To fix a sudden happiness drop, you either need to tech all the way to a new building - that can be 30, 40 turns away - or drastically increase the amount of yield-providing buildings - also 30, 40 turns away.

This is why I'm arguing this point so strongly. When was this last time you observed a new player having these problems? For me, it was last week. I know where I'm coming from. You won't be able to give them sufficient time to change course unless you make the buffer so large it is meaningless. The critical sign that they need to reduce growth needs to come earlier; or alternatively there needs to be some mechanism to reduce Pop (hence: migration, food penalty, just instant death of Citizens/"famine", etc.) I'm not a stickler for any one of those; I'm open to any or all of them being tested. Even the status quo is preferable to a buffer.

Anyone trying to justify a buffer has the burden on them to explain how severe infrastructure problems can be fixed inside of 10-15 turns. I've not seen a single person address this point - not you, not @Stalker0, not @LukaSlovenia29.

I said I have better things to do with my time than argue for stuff I don't believe in. Please stop asserting I am arguing in bad faith, it's not true.

Madness it is, then. I fail to see how having a buffer - versus not having a buffer - is a negative for a player. If, say, you're at 20 happiness, and suddenly the next turn you're at -36, you immediately suffer and you immediately have to solve the issue. If, however, you're at 20 happiness and the next turn your 'real' happiness drops to -36, but the buffer only drops you to 17 happiness, you will a.) get an alert that your happiness is headed for negative, and will get be there in x turns at this rate b.) have x turns to start fighting the problem while your empire continues to produce science, gold, culture etc. as normal. I've never said, nor will I say, that the buffer would solve happiness issues - rather, it will create scenarios in which players are informed ahead of time that times, they are a changin, and they'll need to do something very soon to stave it off. Most likely, the player won't avoid unhappiness even with a buffer - the amount of time they stay in unhappiness, and the jarring immediacy of the drop, would, however at least warn the player.

Lastly, re: 'bad faith,' you personally attacked me and - instead of arguing about the point - you're arguing at me. That's an argument in bad faith, as it assumes that I'm somehow intentionally misunderstanding or misrepresenting the case. Please don't, that's all I'm asking.

I'm just going to put my theory out there.

Your needs are affected by 4 things. The first is growth. You can stop growing if you have to. It might hurt your empire, but its an option that you have a lot of control over.

The second is your own buildings. An issue I run into is if I already have a stock exchange, I can never reduce poverty again. So if I'm going for a science victory, I'm unable to ever reduce poverty and each new tech means my citizens need more gold. Logically, I better be way over the mark on poverty right now or I'm screwed. The are enough new buildings being unlocked from ancient to medieval for a dynamic happiness to work quite well over than time period. In industrial and modern, there is not.

The second is the median value. You cannot really control this. It is somewhat realistic though. If everyone else has more gold, my people are upset about not having enough gold. I think we can afford to have 1 factor you don't control.

The third factor, and a factor which was a late addition, is technology. You cannot stop researching techs, barring absurdity such as selling your science buildings (which will lower your happiness from illiteracy anyways). This is what tends to screw your happiness in the late game. You invent ballistics and your people are suddenly impoverished. I invent biology and suddenly they are bored. The problem here is I don't get more culture with every tech, only like 1 in every 10 techs has a boredom reduction, or a poverty reduction, or an illiteracy reduction. So if I have boredom, my only way to reduce that is to research towards the stadium, which means I have to discover 7 new techs all of which cause even more boredom.

Tech increasing unhappiness works just fine for the early parts of the game, however I'm seeing 0 complaints about happiness from ancient to medieval. Part of the reason it works out alright here is because there are so many buildings and other things being unlocked that almost all techs have something that fights at least one kind of unhappiness. I think around industrial era (where all happiness complaints occur) its a bad feature though. I can stop growing temporarily to deal with happiness issues, I cannot stop discovering techs.

Also I don't like distress. If you are missing hammers, you are already short on the buildings that fight unhappiness. Food causes you to grow so its weird, the food aspect just makes specialists heavy strategies better IMO. The only city that has lots of food but isn't growing to match that is working many specialists.

PS- if you are constantly having happiness problems, take inspiration every game. When happiness is a factor its uncontested for the strongest follower belief.

Tech has been in the happiness system since forever - the only difference is that it now operates on a global median instead of a personal % of techs unlocked. So, in that regard, it's actually more fair now than it ever was in the past.

G
 
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vt0OdUe.png



My civ's happiness is a reflection of my own.
This is all because of Trump !!! :crazyeye:

For happiness, adjust. Don't play the way you do before it has been changed. Might as well say you are playing the game incorrectly this time. Now that I've played the game, I have no issues about it.
 
It also makes it sound personal.
It is personal. A friend of him was rejected by the game when he faced that problem. I know how difficult is to convince friends to play VP, the last thing we need is the game not behaving for them.

It was turn 311 according to the log. As an experiment, we could give that save to everyone here and see how quickly they manage to fix it.
Yes, that could give us the minimum number of turns needed for fixing, but since noobs don't really know how to address things, they will need even more turns.

Here's the github post which has the autosave. In the original save, you'll notice a drastic drop the turn of starting the save...
Link?
I'm also interested in some facts. How many villages have your cities, how many with passing trade routes? How many farms per city? Great People Improvements? How many buildings are available for building in your cities? What are the typical unhappiness values in your cities (2 distress, 4 poverty, 3 boredom)? And finally, what steps would you take to get out of that situation?

An issue I run into is if I already have a stock exchange, I can never reduce poverty again.
Actually there are ways to increase gold production. Statecraft policies, Industrialism policies, in case you didn't take them already, the Statue of Liberty, moving trade routes, planting a Town, replacing farms with villages, sfsf. But if you already did that and still suffers poverty, then I agree you have to rely on your global happiness, because that poverty will remain in the city.

If, however, you're at 20 happiness and the next turn your 'real' happiness drops to -36, but the buffer only drops you to 17 happiness, you will a.) get an alert that your happiness is headed for negative, and will get be there in x turns at this rate b.) have x turns to start fighting the problem while your empire continues to produce science, gold, culture etc. as normal

Now think like a mischieving son (or daughter). He'll see the happiness drop and think, oh, something happened, but I don't know what. He'll do nothing. At 0 happinness he will start thinking, oh, something is truly happening, but things are still ok, so let's keep doing things as usual (aka growing cities to the point of impossible recovery). At -20 happiness the empire is on revolt, its cities have 4 or 5 more population each one, there are 6-8 buildings that are missing for keeping things under control, territory is full of farms and empty of other improvements. All this while you fight war with one or two other major civs and your workers are busy fixing pillaged farms from the recurrent event.
In the next game, he will learn that waiting until -20 happiness is waiting too long, so probably he will try to address things starting from 0 happiness, if ever. But the reaction still comes 20 turns late (assuming he was at 20 happiness to begin with).
[Related off-topic: In the time when Spain was leading in wind turbine plants, electricity productors wanted to raise the prices. The government pacted with the producers a buffer, so prices would stay the same for a few years, in the hope of a drop in the cost of the technology. The costs kept rising, but the consumers received the wrong signal, so they (we) consumed. Five years passed, then the producers added to the electricity tariff the excess of the tariff of the past years, interests included. Now we are paying the relativelly highest electricity tariff in Europe, only second to Malta, an energetically isolated island.]
You see, unhappiness is not a bad thing if it does not bad things to you. Unhappiness must hurt. But it must hurt in such a way that allows for recovery. A soft punishment in time.

Look at the other buffers in the game.
-War weariness has a period of grace, then it starts punishing the player that has high loses, gradually. War weariness take a while to recover, but the action you make is immediate: stop fighting, sue for peace, raze cities if the other civ does not want to comply. Meanwhile, the penalty affects the ability of the player to wage war.
-Research stopping without gold is not exactly a buffer mechanic. It is a soft punishment for getting out of gold, before the hard punishments start to hit, like losing random units.

So, what the players really need is to feel a soft punishment in time, so they start reacting (seeing your happiness drop a few points is not alarming, it happens all the time), and this penalty must help combat the source of the problem. If you insist on depleting GAP, don't let it happen over -10 happiness. Unhappiness also reduces growth, so it also limits the reach of the unhappiness spiral, but it happens globally and late, in my opinion.
Having unhappy people consume more food (growth, if you prefer) in every city solves all the points above. You feel the problem in advance, as the cities that are more unhappy are not growing properly. There's a punishment (slow growth) that at the same time prevents things getting out of control in time (it does not wait for the global unhappiness). City manager has proven to handle happiness properly, the problem usually comes from players not letting AI control workers so they end up with very few villages and tons of farms. If a player obsessed with growth notice that the citiy with tons of farms is not growing as expected, he will check and see that there are happiness problems in that city.
 
vt0OdUe.png



My civ's happiness is a reflection of my own.
oh look, a penny!


So, I've not been reading this thread much the last few days, and it seems it pretty much exploded. And the few lines i read seem to indicate people are now trying to remedy some of the symptoms.... oof. Like that buffer: It sounds like if you're the scientist trying to cure the flu, and instead find a way to tell people 2 days in advance they're sick and gonna get the flu, so they'd need to prepare themselves. Do I really need to be concerned the discussion derailed, or did i read too little?
 
oh look, a penny!


So, I've not been reading this thread much the last few days, and it seems it pretty much exploded. And the few lines i read seem to indicate people are now trying to remedy some of the symptoms.... oof. Like that buffer: It sounds like if you're the scientist trying to cure the flu, and instead find a way to tell people 2 days in advance they're sick and gonna get the flu, so they'd need to prepare themselves. Do I really need to be concerned the discussion derailed, or did i read too little?
If you are past the point of getting sick, (sleep well, eat healthy) then this don't affect you.
 
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