New challenge: domination victories for civs

[AnotherPacifist]

Monty will usually not open borders with you even with a 4+ relationship (you need 5+). It takes way too long to go through Central America and only a quecha can go along with your settler, leaving it rather vulnerable.

I'm in the early 1800's, top score, but still no electricity or even rifling, and Spain has been rather bothersome with a 100 year war, together with its vassal the Aztecs. I'm never going to get to the Internet--I'm going to stop after industrialism/combustion for tanks.

 

[kbk]

I send one of my initial scouts up through N. America and can open borders with the Aztec early on by offering about 10 gold in gift. This always gets me open borders with them.

This may change after the Europeans arrive.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Ok, it's 1910, I'm top in score, Cristo Redentor and Wembley are built, I have industrialism/combustion (i.e. tanks) and just need 2 more turns for fascism. I control 15% of pop and 10% of land. Northern Canada (5%) is wide open, and so is most of Australia (5%). Mali has just collapsed and should be good for another 5% of land. I can found 2 more big cities in the middle of the Amazon. I'm solid (and will be very solid when I switch to police state and nationhood). I don't have any vassals yet, but Japan (who beat me to the Eiffel Tower) and Mongolia look tasty...

I count this game as won. The denouement is left as an exercise to the reader.

 

[blizzrd]

I count this game as won. The denouement is left as an exercise to the reader.

But does that really count as a win?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

OK, I'll play it out when I catch up on my sleep.

 

[kbk]

OK, I'll play it out when I catch up on my sleep.

From my earlier excercise, Inca are a lot like Turkey and Arabia. You're going to be Solid/Very Solid up until 20%, and then its going to drop like a brick. So get some sleep, and go through it. You may have to play at liberating cities to non-vassals, or get some vassals to actually pull it off. Getting Vassals as Inca is actually part of the challenge I think, so is that last 5% of land area.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Had Americans, Egyptians, Babylonians as vassals. The first two are key in achieving victory.

Well, I was solid until about 25% of land, then the last 3% was tough. I had to mass-found cities at the last move and crank up my culture to get the win (drove me from stable to collapsing, although I didn't collapse). I was running out of Incan names (Thessalonica, Jaipur, Coimbra and Sipan were founded by me). I always forget NOT to kill the Spanish and French so that they will be alive for the 25% rather than 28% land to count...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Anybody want to try a domination game in emperor mode? Ideas:

1. France mops up Germany and builds the Frankish empire, expands to US and beeline for assembly line. Steals lots of techs from Netherlands.
2. England builds lots of overseas colonies and try to avoid war, vassalize Americans
3. Arabia (much harder due to barbs)

 

[blizzrd]

Anybody want to try a domination game in emperor mode? Ideas:

1. France mops up Germany and builds the Frankish empire, expands to US and beeline for assembly line. Steals lots of techs from Netherlands.
2. England builds lots of overseas colonies and try to avoid war, vassalize Americans
3. Arabia (much harder due to barbs)

I'm still playing Arabia on Emperor at the moment. I have around 32% Islam but well short of the Domination thresholds because I have had to grant independence to lots of cities just to maintain my empire. I've been Unstable for ages and when I verge into Collapsing I grant some more independence. My vassals (Portugal, Inca, Khmer, Mali) stopped accepting my conquests recently. Then Portugal collapsed entirely. I just can't see how the current stability system would allow for an Arabic Domination victory on Emperor.

 

[kbk]

Anybody want to try a domination game in emperor mode? Ideas:

1. France mops up Germany and builds the Frankish empire, expands to US and beeline for assembly line. Steals lots of techs from Netherlands.
2. England builds lots of overseas colonies and try to avoid war, vassalize Americans
3. Arabia (much harder due to barbs)

I've debated this, but it of course will be difficult. One thing, your base stability is a whole level lower on Emperor. So you'd want a civ that can stay somewhat competitive with technology, and one with a massive expansive area. England, France, and Spain ought to be reasonable, maybe Mongolia, China and Russia too.

 

[The Q-Meister]

Wow you guys are amazing. You must have that "gifting cities to vassals" down as a science!

Quick question: Playing as Turkey, I have a decent empire from the Indus to Italy. I also have 4 vassals: Aztecs, Inca, India, Netherlands. Here's my question, I want to continue my conquests but I am concerned about stability. So is it better to stay with viceroyalty considering I have 4 vassals or go with occupation?


Also an alternative challenge: Is it possible to win a Domination game without going to the Americas? For instance, winning with Mongolia while staying in Asia?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

That is why Cristo is so important, because you can switch back to viceroyalty if you don't have any cities that are in revolt. You NEED occupation to get the stability from conquering cities, and after that you get the extra stability from liberating it to a vassal. Unfortunately Netherlands may not be the best vassal unless you want to give up some of your European conquests.

Also an alternative challenge: Is it possible to win a Domination game without going to the Americas? For instance, winning with Mongolia while staying in Asia?

I've done it before the current patch (when it's possible to have more than 4 vassals) with the Persians, but it's probably much harder now. Mongolia stands a good chance of doing it.

 

[kbk]

I've done it before the current patch (when it's possible to have more than 4 vassals) with the Persians, but it's probably much harder now. Mongolia stands a good chance of doing it.

Have you done Persia at all with the 4 vassal limit? I may give that one a try if you haven't done it with the latest patch.

Also, I'm thinking a Russian emperor domination is doable. I'm working on them for the UHV as emperor right now, but I've been testing settling more of Siberia for the land area, and so far so good. If things go well I may try to build the Apollo program, then go reload and go for the domination. It will likely have to be a conquest style domination due to the tech lag, but the Russians have such a massive expansion area that it may be possible. I'm having no expansion problems, and I haven't even gone to nationhood/police state yet.

Edit: I've done domination with Turkey without going to the Americas. See: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6932786&postcount=31
also, I did Arabia with ignoring the Americas until very late, see: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6954482&postcount=52

 

[blizzrd]

Also an alternative challenge: Is it possible to win a Domination game without going to the Americas? For instance, winning with Mongolia while staying in Asia?

I assume you mean on emperor difficulty? It is certainly possible on Monarch, I've even done it by 'accident' when trying for the UHV with both Russia and Persia.

I haven't yet had a domination victory on emperor difficulty though.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Persia is simple: you get occupation without the price. Plus there's no extra penalty if you raze a city (you get +3 for capturing a city and -2 for razing it, making it a net -1 for stability, as opposed to -3 net for occupation+razing city). Running resettlement early and going to the States to vassalize the Aztecs and Incans should give extra stability.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Had an interesting start where Shush wasn't Babylonian, but had 2 independent workers and 2 archers/1warrior that flipped to me! (I'll take early workers any day over immortals) Didn't go for Greece or Egypt early. Spies were my friends stealing techs from the Germans, French and Vikings. Egypt was an OK vassal (would have liked Americans but they were stupid enough not to ask for vassalization after they got Fort Albany from a conference, eliminating the threat that would have them vassalize). Would have won 12 years earlier if not for stupid China coming back to life, taking 4 good cities from Khmer. Had to "protect" the Aztecs from winning their UHV by capturing all European cities they can reach.

Built my first tank on the turn I won...what a waste. I was going to kill Mongolia, Spain and Portugal and have a world monopoly on oil.

 

[kbk]

So Russia on Emperor looks interesting. From my emperor game, I think its definitely possible. It will likely require the more militaristic/aggressive style I used in my Arabia and Turkey victories, because you just cannot compete until late in the game, but when those research institutes come online, you really become a juggernaut.

On the Emperor UHV, I managed to do about 16% land area and be shaky. This involved settling Siberia, minus about 4 cities which would fill out the area (and be another 2%), and capturing Constantinople and Anatolia.

Still, this is only shaky, but its quite easy to get 4+ golden ages in the 1900s as Russia (Great people, and 2/3 UHV), and I have to point out that I maintained universal suffrage and free speech, and did NOT use resettlement for Siberia, or occupation for Anatolia, which I think would easily get me to stable, if not solid.


I plan to start over from scratch with the domination goal when I get some time. I'll also have to focus on getting more vassals and not turtle so much early on, since I'll be able to risk losing a city. Late game, I figure I'll expand into Anatolia and Germany and Scandinavia to get me close, then we'll see where I have to go after that.

--

Nice Persian win, like Turkey and Arabia, the Persians have a very nice conquest associated unique power that is a lot of fun.

 

[Cossack Captain]

this is fantastic! What wonderful and gigantic empires you have managed to create!! Now I am no noob but I don't see you how you manage to maintain any kind of science rate with such a vast territory. My average game has a territory half that large and already I'm behind the Western European countries. You say spies for techs but it seems so expensive and gets more and more expensive as the game goes on.

Would either of you consider writing a general strategy guide for achieving Domination victory for us mortal players?? Nothing too specific, just general things to remember.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

There's one in the wiki (look under general strategy).

The trick with large empires is that you need to get there slowly, and run representation as long as your stability will allow (e.g. with my last Persian game I ran representation up till Radio in the early 1700's). Free religion also helps.

Trade frequently (Mali will trade anything--even military techs--for the right price, and make sure you get Divine Right from them if you're one of the Europeans other than Portugal or Netherlands).

As I said many a time before, if you have vassals, give them the prerequisites for military tradition/military science/steel (which don't need scientific method) and direct them to research. Even if they won't trade it to you, you can either steal it from them (if they're close by) or it means that your research cost is less (the more civs knowing a particular tech, the lower the cost).

The best civs to steal from are Netherlands and France (for rifling), Germany and Russia (for military tradition and military science). As Khmer I stole almost all the medieval techs from China (feudalism, guilds, engineering, civil service) with a great spy. If you're Aztec or Maya, steal techs from the Americans. If you don't have a great spy, set ALL your spy points towards one civ and aim for one tech to steal at a time.

Early education bulbed with a great scientist and liberalism for free tech (I usually choose Astronomy for the overseas trade, galleons and observatories) helps too.

Sometimes the best build in your queue is research (especially if it'll shave a turn from your next tech).

 

[Cossack Captain]

Thank you. Very good advice coming from a wise player.

Looking back at the photos from your Persian triumph, I am very impressed that you managed to take Arabia and maintain stability. I can take Arabia easily in a good game with the Persians for me, it is usually the kiss of death with stability is concerned. I assumed it was one of those 'no go' areas for Persia.

When you say slowly expand I am torn because I feel if I wait too long other nations will take the territory.