New challenge: earliest possible UHVs

[TDK]

It's about not collapsing. All you have to do is survive until the Khmer has won a UHV comes across the screen to show that your empire at the virtual UHV was all that it purported to be.

So what you are saying is that to qualify for your thread, I can't ever collapse?
I think you should put that up as a house rule then in the OP. Collapsing is part of the game, and a smart player will use it sometimes to regain stability.

Or are you saying that I can collapse, but I can't generate another Artist to make up for the lost culture? If that's the case, this is all getting a little bit to abstract for me(I have to win, and then I have to win again 200 years later, but without really doing anything active).

TDK

 

[Tigranes]

what year is it?

Turn 138 is 40 BC. You can look here, instead of the Worldbuilder (I don't like it either, one can't even build a city without creating a srettler).

 

[Tigranes]

So what you are saying is that to qualify for your thread, I can't ever collapse?

TDK

TDK, I think blizzrd is being reasonable. Collapsing is not the only problem. "Have more than 12000 Culture in 1450 AD/Have an average city size of 10 or more in 1450 AD" -- is very specific. Anything can happen between now and 1450 AD. One time I got Plague just before the deadline -- can you imagine? I was about to win and my cities shrinking in front of my eyes! One of my cities would not reach to size 10 in 1450, so I gave it to China -- sounds like an exploit, but I try never to reload and starting over would be too late... In that game Japan declared a war on me when I had 28% World Buddhist -- invaded from the sea with a huge stack, took Singapore and pressed further, knowing that I neglect military completely! Fortunately England finally open borders and I won even withouth Singapore which was a hub for my missionary route...

In my current Mali game, I had 3.8 K gold in 1300 AD, but was not able to keep 4 K at 1500 AD. Barbs pressed me very hard, I spent cash on Mercenaries, they pillaged my cottages and even took over a city with a low winning odds. It's a random event generator, pal, and if anything can go wrong it will

 

[BurnEmDown]

I don't know about you but I can't imagine winning a UHV after collapsing, I mean you only keep your capital and with the Khmer unless it has more than 12000 Culture you're bound to lose that UHV.

 

[ambassoon]

Quote TDK: So what you are saying is that to qualify for your thread, I can't ever collapse?
I think you should put that up as a house rule then in the OP. Collapsing is part of the game, and a smart player will use it sometimes to regain stability.

Quote Tigranes: I think blizzrd is being reasonable. Collapsing is not the only problem.

Let's use the example of the Chinese or Romans. They can't lose a city before a certain point in time in order to get the UHV. The virtual victory allows you to claim a victory before that date, effectively eliminating the goal. But it's important for this goal to be established. The confirmation of the goal by getting the Ultimate Historical Victory would allow you to claim the early date, and still include that very important goal as part of the UHV. If one of your cities is captured after you declare virtual victory, but before the UHV is declared in-game, your score shouldn't count.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

On the other hand, in some cases it's virtually impossible to lose after you've achieved your VV. E.g. from my VVs:
1. Germany, Russia: nobody can seriously damage my troops, I don't have plague anymore and even if there were respawns I can recapture the cities in the same move.
2. Netherlands: I haven't sold my map yet and nobody has even heard of Australia. As far as the AI is concerned, my spices are magically produced. And after the 2nd UHV criteria is met, you can throw away your spices for all I care (I typically trade them out for other resources).
3. France: I've quoted my Parisian culture and its most immediate contender
4. Portugal: even if you sold your map (like I did), you can just buy everybody else's map and add a little to it (like interior of Australia, Greenland and Alaska which the AI almost never explores.
5. Persia: I could have just stopped playing but after the Great Wall, it's guaranteed.

Romans VV would need: 1. Great Wall 2. the requisite buildings and 3. the requisite cities

Chinese VV: 1. Great Wall AND Mongolia which is dead and no cities in Mongolia spawning area 2. the requisite buildings before 1000 AD and 3. 120 troops before 1600 and either a knowledge of medicine OR an extra unit (military or not) in the cities that can absorb plague damage, and no warriors (who tend to die in plagues nowadays)

Khmer on the other hand NEEDS 12000 culture and if you collapse or lose one of your cities with culture you lose. (Unless you happened to bomb your artists in your capital only, which would suffice as a guaranteed VV, short of a plague which takes your cities down below 10).

This is the same reason why Japan would be a good VV after 1700. If you're first to discover all techs before 1930, your score is probably going to be much higher than your nearest contender in 1930.

 

[ambassoon]

I would say pacifist makes a good point that sometimes VVs can be assured UHVs. But I would also point out that Rhye has made a deliberately unpredictable game. This is one reason why there are some goals that can only be counted by reaching a certain time in history. This might be just a niggling point, but when it comes down to the wire and two people claim a confirmed earliest virtual victory, I would me more inclined to give it to the person who has a confirmed in-game UHV.

So as a compromise, maybe we should say that VVs are allowed without confirmed UHV's. But when there is a dispute over who got an earlier virtual victory, we should give it to the person who has a confirmed historical victory. Just to provide an extra incentive to do so. What do we think?

 

[TDK]

The problem here is that:
-now I have to go back and replay AGAIN with the culture bombs in the capital and it wouldn't really change the game in any significant way. I could collapse then and still win the UHV hands down.
or
-Play it out to 1450 without collapsing, which is probably doable, but equally boring.

So any opinions on the case of me losing some culture but re-reaching 12000 in 1450AD? You know, us having to discuss a situation like that tells me that we are entering the land of the abstract and I can only see us going into more artificial situations as the games roll in.

So we started out with the VV.
Then the UHV screenie.
Then the "house rule" that I can't collapse.
Maybe another abstract ruling that I can't reach 12000 again?
......

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Sure you can collapse (I was a little afraid of that in my Persian game but got to shaky at the end) and have the UHV screen. It's just a little harder to actually win if you do collapse as Khmer. I would suggest playing your game till the end and see if you win (no reason you can't as usually you lose cities rather than civil war first, and if you're lucky you may not lose your culture-bombed cities).

 

[TDK]

Isn't it like winning 2 times? I mean, even if I did lose some of my culture which is the only risk there really is, what would prevent me from just generating another artist? Or am I nor allowed to do that either?

It's about not collapsing. All you have to do is survive until the Khmer has won a UHV comes across the screen to show that your empire at the virtual UHV was all that it purported to be.

Sure you can collapse (I was a little afraid of that in my Persian game but got to shaky at the end) and have the UHV screen. It's just a little harder to actually win if you do collapse as Khmer. I would suggest playing your game till the end and see if you win (no reason you can't as usually you lose cities rather than civil war first, and if you're lucky you may not lose your culture-bombed cities).

Okay, I just wanted to be sure on that one. So I can also pop another Artist in case I lose one of the culture cities?

 

[Fierabras]

TDK, I'd like to see you reach the UHV after a collapse. Maybe the challenge is to remain above 30% Buddhism until 1450 AD with only your capital to generate missionaries.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But that's not the case: the 30% Buddhism is only checked once (just like Arabia's 40% Islam). After that, it doesn't matter if those former-Khmer indy cities (if his empire has civil war) shrink; in fact it will make his 3rd goal easier (just grow your capital to >10 size) IF his great artists were there.
In fact, TDK's early achievement of the 3rd UHV criteria is a feat in itself precisely because it came before the first 2, and before he has optics.

 

[Fierabras]

Oh right, you only have to reach it once. I guess Rhye wasn't expecting this condition to be reached before the other ones. Then again, it might result in not reaching the other 2.

EDIT: In my first game as the Khmer I collapsed around 1700 AD and kept playing, because I was at 29%. When that started to drop, I gave up.

 

[blizzrd]

On the other hand, in some cases it's virtually impossible to lose after you've achieved your VV. E.g. from my VVs:
1. Germany, Russia: nobody can seriously damage my troops, I don't have plague anymore and even if there were respawns I can recapture the cities in the same move.

I disagree with Germany. Owning multiple foreign capitals plus instability from razing some cities along the journey do not make for a stable German civ. If you collapse, how would you propose to recapture all the cities in the same move? This is actually one of the least certain VVs in my opinion.

Then the "house rule" that I can't collapse.

No there is no house rule like this or any other abstract rulings.

Let me explain it this way:

To prove that your virtual UHV will not fail to become an actual UHV, either:
1. Post a screenshot of the actual UHV, when this eventually occurs; or
2. Explain in your post why it is not possible to fail any of the remaining conditions from your posted virtual UHV position.

If your argument in (2) convinces me, I'll gladly accept the Virtual UHV.

 

[blizzrd]

I'm extending this challenge to include both 3000BC and 600AD starts. I've made some assumptions about some of the earlier posted best times, please post if I have made an error with this.

 

[TDK]

So now I see that my 1150AD win with Arabia was removed from the list, is this deliberate?

 

[BurnEmDown]

I disagree with Germany. Owning multiple foreign capitals plus instability from razing some cities along the journey do not make for a stable German civ. If you collapse, how would you propose to recapture all the cities in the same move? This is actually one of the least certain VVs in my opinion.

What he means by this is that if civilizations will respawn he will be able to take them back in 1 turn.

 

[blizzrd]

So now I see that my 1150AD win with Arabia was removed from the list, is this deliberate?

No. As I said:

please post if I have made an error with this.

What he means by this is that if civilizations will respawn he will be able to take them back in 1 turn.

Yes I understand that BurnEmDown. But my point was not what if a respawn was to occur but a collapse to independent cities of every non-capital city were to occur. Only units in the capital would retain their loyalty and they would have a hard time retaking all the former cities in this case.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Whoever has a 3000 BC start record for the later civs should really be credited for their patience. I'm trying 5 or 6 starts and either France has all cities razed and Rome is still kicking, or Spain has inherited lots of axemen/swordsmen and declares war on me after I refuse them my gold. Another time it looks like it was going to be fine but Christianity's holy city was destined to flip to the Germans. In no try did I get anything more than Bordeaux and a measly horseman. I'm going to keep trying though...

(the same problem is probably going to plague Germany, since if Milan is still around it'll enclose Frankfurt's production, and all the barbs would have been Frenchified (and syphilitic) or Spanified ("The way in which Spanish people type words from the English language phonetically")).

 

[Fierabras]

Khmer, 3000 BC start. After 5 turns I reach my first UHV goal. No Christianity, no fun. Religion screen at start below:

Spoiler :