New challenge: Spaceship victories with production poor civs

[AnotherPacifist]

Egypt is great for early wonders but terrible for later (i.e. iron/ aluminum/happiness) expansion. Arabia is going to box me in. There's the sinkhole called south Africa that'll drive my economy to the dumps for unknown reasons. My last game as Hannibal gave me a thought--if you build the Great Wall, the many barbs in Africa will demolish other civs (in fact Mali never had a chance and was wiped out in the early 1100's, and in 1988 the barbs will still roaming West Africa). So if Carthage (and maybe Rome and Greece) collapses, I'll capture their cities (which will then be safe from barbs, at least the African ones) and from there I'll get to America for my 3-4 productive cities.
Count on Ethiopia, maybe Mali as my vassals for happiness (will give Mali feudalism and maybe an elephant).
Use 500/5000 culture as my 2/3 UHV and build the wonders a little later than required.
Need Mausoleum of Mausollos and Hanging Gardens!!

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

For Egypt prioritizing the GW is very important. Then wait for Ethiopia to get destryoed by the barbs and take them. Indpendents aren't really a war.

Vassalizing Mali and possibly Carthage would be smart. When Greece collapses make sure to take Athens.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Basically did the same thing as Mongolia, except that it's even easier with Arabia which starts with more time. First to liberalism and free religion/free speech, lots of money with the 4 shrines. Even made my University of Sankore and Spiral Minaret seem paltry in contrast. Was super stable until the very end when I did a land grab for score (founded 7 cities in 4 moves, some in North America), and dropped to collapsing.

Aksum, Samarqand, Baghdad and Delhi were my most productive cities. Converted a sluggish Mumbai into a good city with National Park. Settled maybe 10 priests in Mecca. Some barb horse archers razed Sana which is a waste of a city, too bad I can't thank them in person (built the Great Wall right afterwards).

Yes, it's possible to produce 11000 culture in 1 move.

Could have finished this 100 years early, but I'm a sucker for vassals and colonizing North America.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

* means I've done it. All in monarch obviously. + means done by others.

Easy:
*Germany
*Russia
*England
*France
*Vikings
*Spain
*China
*Rome
Japan
*Netherlands
*Portugal
*Greece

Medium-easy:
*Carthage (need to grab good land)
*Mongolia (large empire=high science cost, lack of time)
*Arabia (large empire=high science cost)
*Persia (large empire=high science cost)
*America (lack of time)
*Turkey (lack of time)

Medium-hard:
*Aztec (behind in science)
*Khmer (tough terrain)
*Maya (Aztecs)
*Inca (behind in science)

Hard to impossible:
*Mali (no golden age, poor production, African instability)
+*Babylon (tough neighbors in the future)
*Ethiopia (stinking impis/barbs, African instability)
Egypt (poor production, stinking impis/barbs,mysterious causes of instability)
+India (poor production,mysterious causes of instability)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Enough said...to be compared to his grandson is just terrible.

 

[onedreamer]

I finally did it, purely by luck (see below).

Started out with Oaxaca and sent 2nd settler to New Orleans (just beyond flip zone for Aztecs).

Well if you call Maya one of the least productive civs and then colonize Louisiana or even worse Colorado and Texas (most productive areas I've seen in the game, I've had Denver over 200 base production) it isn't going to be a real Mayan spaceship IMHO. The real challenge is launchinig a spaceship from the real mayan lands. Let's allow the city just north of Ticumé maybe, if it's impossible with just central america (Mexico is fair game IMO).

Also, because of the above, I won an american space race with 600 AD start and it's extremely easy.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well if you call Maya one of the least productive civs and then colonize Louisiana or even worse Colorado and Texas (most productive areas I've seen in the game, I've had Denver over 200 base production) it isn't going to be a real Mayan spaceship IMHO. The real challenge is launchinig a spaceship from the real mayan lands. Let's allow the city just north of Ticumé maybe, if it's impossible with just central america (Mexico is fair game IMO).

Also, because of the above, I won an american space race with 600 AD start and it's extremely easy.

Well, there's really no way to produce a spaceship from poor lands, and you need at least 5-6 good cities to beat everybody else, besides aluminum. What I meant was to get spaceships from civs that typically have poor production IF they stayed in their traditional spawn area. Great Britain, France and even Arabia would count as poor. The obvious solution is to get to the productive lands before anybody else does.

Mexico by the way can accomodate 1.5 good cities (I had the Aztecs as my vassal and my city with its full cross had 18 population at the expense of the other 2 Aztec cities which were down to 4-5 pop each.

 

[onedreamer]

Well, I don't think "there's no way" you can win (on monarch) a space race settling only Yucatan, the city north of Ticumé and if it looks impossible then maybe take over Mexico. I'm gonna try that and let you know.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Victoria chided herself for taking too many vassals (France, Germany, Khmer, Aztecs, Incans, Chinese, Indians)...and didn't live to see the launch of her spaceship. Erased the upstart Americans from history in the war of 1812.

Very funny thing happened in 1900, Nidaros (but not Bergen which is closer) flipped to me by culture.

 

[blizzrd]

Egypt is great for early wonders but terrible for later (i.e. iron/ aluminum/happiness) expansion. Arabia is going to box me in. There's the sinkhole called south Africa that'll drive my economy to the dumps for unknown reasons. My last game as Hannibal gave me a thought--if you build the Great Wall, the many barbs in Africa will demolish other civs (in fact Mali never had a chance and was wiped out in the early 1100's, and in 1988 the barbs will still roaming West Africa).

I had a similar thought when I played Egypt through to the modern era. Some problems however:

1. Impis are Native, not Barbarian, and ignore Great Wall effect.
2. Camel Archers which spawn in Arabia are not prevented by the Great Wall from entering Africa via Sinai.

Other than these reasons, the Great Wall 'seems' like a good idea for Egypt, but I found it unconvincing.

For point 2, I think this is because Arabia is considered to be on a different continent. Does anyone know of a map which defines the continental boundaries for the purpose of wonders such as the Great Wall, Statue of Liberty, etc. ?

 

[onedreamer]

Egypt can have copper to build axemen to defend from Natives, and Elephants to defend from Camel Archers. They should only mean free xp for you
Same with Carthage.

Also natives, not being barbarians, provide more than 10xp and count toward the Great General appearance ! I'd do all but prevent them from coming ...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Did my usual Persia moves, razed Sur after giving it to Arabia, built a palace in Mazaka (in eastern Turkey) and when Turkey spawns in Sogut, erased them from history. Razed a total of 10 cities in order not to grow too big, but Persia's unique power was too tempting. 3 Golden Ages (triumphal arch, Taj Mahal and Olympic Park). The only surviving Europeans that were not my vassals were Germany and Britain. Made the mistake of founding 3 big cities in America, and had almost all the world (Incans, Aztecs, Russia (spontaneously), Khmer, Egypt (by war), Mali, Portugal) as my vassals. Of course fighting against too much culture was in my mind, so I purposefully didn't build any theaters or temples in my 3 most cultural cities. Halfway to Industrialism, I thought I was good until Vikings respawned and decided to vassalize to Russia (my vassal) which tipped me over the edge for domination in 1850 (I always had the population).

So it should probably be put in the the "hard" category, for the self-control needed not to win a domination or cultural victory.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Went back and gave all my American holdings away. Conquered Athens and Constantinople instead, which prompted a war with Germany and vassalized him. Nearly made the same mistakes (29.5%/30% land and 24.5%/25% population, 2 legendary cities).

My Persian game gave me the schema for a Babylonian spaceship:
1. build Babylon and get 2/3 UHV if possible
2. Conquer Egypt and Greece; collapse India early with 1st warrior
3. Flip Shush and disband
4. Flip Jerusalem and Sur, and give Sur to Arabia and raze on 2nd flip
5. Build Mazaka as my 2nd palace (and Constantinople if not built already) to box the Turks in and erase from history
6. Meanwhile Athens builds settlers up in the Russian/German border and collapse Germany with my culture.
7. When Persia and Rome collapse, get their biggest cities (Sirajis, Rome) and raze the rest.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

As usual, founded Lisboa as my capital, 4 other cities (Madrid 1 north of start, La Coruna, Barcelona and Cadiz) as well as 2 in North Africa (it was quite ironic to have the statement "Plague has spread in Oran!") Played pacifist until France decided to ask for La Coruna (100% Spanish and totally blocking France, but I had open borders with them, so Napoleon had no excuse). Germany and England were my friends, and Germany collapsed, leaving a super powerful Netherlands after France collapses. And sure enough, Willem declares war on me and I vassalize him. America was my vassal because France declared war during the flip.

One interesting thing was how close (and yet how far) the other 2/3 civs were. Russia never lost a city, actually colonized Siberia. Japan was not top in score but got liberalism even before Netherlands. Turkey had 1 vassal, and could have easily vassalized Greece, Egypt and Arabia when they respawned (I got Arabia as a spontaneous vassal).

 

[AnotherPacifist]

In his dotage (of 1850 years old) Augustus had a dream of flying to the moon. So instead of opting for dominating the world (he already had 50% of world population) or being crowned Imperator Mundi (with diplomacy of course, already having 9 vassals) with a very stable empire, he went for a spaceship. Well, his economy could not grow for ever, so after belligerent Spain was pacified into the Province of Hispania, and some cities in former Russia clamored to join (and thus destabilize) the empire, he lost France and Greece twice (conquered them back but he became too weary) and finally the Aztecs respawned with just 2 cities. Even had a 100% Roman Constantinople and Cheronesus flip to the Turks for no good reason, had to vassalize them. The damn spaceship took another 150 years to fly and by then he was demoted from Augustus Caesar to Warren G. Harding.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Had a previous save when I was doing reasonably well with Russia...first time I founded Rjazan instead of Moscow and sending a horse archer east to contact China and the eastern civs. The problem with Russia is that it doesn't have too many happiness resources (furs and gems really up north), so having Khmer as an early vassal with all its happiness resource (and having built Notre Dame using a great engineer) didn't hurt. By the end I had Greece, Egypt, India, Khmer and China as vassals.
Always thought it was a waste having built the Apollo (or Sputnik) program but not being able to build a spaceship.
The only war I had was with the Vikings who happily conquered Brest-Litowsk from the Germans for me, and then I declared war on the Vikings who made the Germans my friends (and collapsed soon thereafter). Even got Kilia from a world conference, and built the UN soon after to avoid any more needless wars.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Turkey is one of those civs that can go really well or really horribly. The ideal conditions for the 600 AD start are:
1. Byzantium has no gunpowder and withstood the Arabian onslaught...so that most of the cities have good buildings left.
2. Arabia has no gunpowder and has not built Desful/Bagdat or captured Shiraz (otherwise their production will be good)
3. Germany has built towards the Dutch rather than towards the Balkans.

I had all 3 conditions for my win. As usual built all the available wonders. Saved a monastery for each religion to spread the faiths later. Never used bureaucracy since I didn't want to lose all my beginning units by hurling them towards Istabul.

Actually have India, Khmer, Vikings as vassals but after 1870 obviously.

BTW, the smaller cities in Turkey have their uses. First of all, you can whip lots of janissaries initially before you hook up the iron or copper, and that helps with collapsing Arabia early. Later when you've built lots of temples it will help with cathedrals. Konya is actually my 3rd most productive city even with Sogut and Sinop squeezing it in. Later when you have Sid's Sushi (or Cereal, which I also have) those cities can grow to a decent size.

The last picture is just a show of the Turkish power of culture (plus free speech, Eiffel Tower, 2 corporations and 4 religions with cathedrals)...even my new cities (you can guess which ones are new) are able to squeeze the older cities to half their sizes and make them unstable.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Monty had a change of heart. Instead of killing Europeans he wanted to dominated them scientifically and diplomatically. So he did what the Americans couldn't do--sign the Russians in NATO. Of course that means forgoing the easy 5 European slaves part, but now they're ALL his slaves.

At the very last moment when the spaceship was arriving, World War broke out--east against west. Guess who has 10 nukes stored before outlawing them?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The Vikings are unique in that they could take over either England, France or Germany. (Or even Russia but why go to those barren lands without commerce?) For best science rates, England (and neutral Ireland which doesn't flip automatically) can't be beat. England will eventually collapse since they can't occupy their traditional lands, and you can take over Inverness without any war at all. Then it's 3 major cities in New Orleans, Chicago and Denver. Sent a great artist to Chicago and enveloped the whole east coast, which made Washington vassalize to me (even though I already had 5 vassals)--not that I needed him, but Washington's culture envelops the horse, coal and iron and must not be allowed.

 

[mushyman]

I think you can probably move the Turkish spaceship to easy - my recent Turkish UHV attempt was very easily shifted to a spaceship attempt once it was obvious I wasn't going to get the required vassals (most of the potentials vassalized elsewhere )

I didn't bother to expand outside of Europe although I did get the Incas as vassals, plus the Dutch later on. Unfortunately about 5 turns before the spaceship landed the Babylonians revolted losing me a nice production and commerce city in Babil and hurting my score a bit, but Frankfurt revolted to me a turn before I won and this empire was good for a Nero score. I was comfortably 1st for a long time, with the Americans 2nd place for most of it at around 1500 points behind me.