You seem pretty confident that none of the other BtS expansion civs will have a naval UU. My thought is that if the Byzantines are added they may have the Dromon again.
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- Thread starter WoolyWoolwine83
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You seem pretty confident that none of the other BtS expansion civs will have a naval UU. My thought is that if the Byzantines are added they may have the Dromon again.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Glitch... forgot the "if"... But until now the Carrack is the only naval UU
snipperrabbit!!
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Maybe holland will get a ship too.
DaviddesJ
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Gaius Octavius
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We ARE forgetting something... this IS Beyond the Sword. Perhaps espionage and its slider don't come until later in the game, when it historically began to play a much greater role in wars. (Not to say it didn't before.)
BtS refers to both the post gunpowder era and increased non-military options so there's no reason why you would have to wait for an industrial era technology to unlock the espionage slider.
But I do agree that a tech will probably be needed to unlock the espionage slider. If it didn't already unlock significant game elements, I'd go for civil service.
But I do agree that a tech will probably be needed to unlock the espionage slider. If it didn't already unlock significant game elements, I'd go for civil service.
Gaius Octavius
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Makes sense to me. Drama unlocks the culture slider, so why wouldn't a later tech unlock the espionage slider?
Bongo-Bongo
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The rest of the additions to the expansion all seem really good, but the espionage side sounds like it might be comletely overdone.
Theres no doubt that spying needed massive improvements. It is so boring and unimaginitive in it's present form that using spies often just doesn't seem worth it. But now it seems that Firaxis has listened to our concerns over spying, looked at improving the aspect, and taken it too far. I know I can't jusge it properly until I've used the feature, but, IMO, having an espionage slider and a Great Spy GP seems to be taking it OTT. Great Explorers, Great Admirals or something like that I could understand, but not a Great Spy. What spying needs most of all is better missions and to come earlier, as well as the ability to build an intelligence network. On the surface, what is being added all seems a bit tacky.
Theres no doubt that spying needed massive improvements. It is so boring and unimaginitive in it's present form that using spies often just doesn't seem worth it. But now it seems that Firaxis has listened to our concerns over spying, looked at improving the aspect, and taken it too far. I know I can't jusge it properly until I've used the feature, but, IMO, having an espionage slider and a Great Spy GP seems to be taking it OTT. Great Explorers, Great Admirals or something like that I could understand, but not a Great Spy. What spying needs most of all is better missions and to come earlier, as well as the ability to build an intelligence network. On the surface, what is being added all seems a bit tacky.
What's the point of these units? It's widely acknowledged that, for its ability to explore, the explorer unit is almost useless (though there are creative uses for it). How can a great explorer be justified in CivIV without an overhaul of the game so large it goes way beyond what can be expected of an expansion pack.
Great Generals can give all of their bonuses to ships as well as land units. Naval combat isn't well defined enough to justify seperating the military great people into two (and I don't believe that the act of creating a great admiral would provide the required definition).
Bongo-Bongo
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I understand that that Great Explorers and Great Admirals would need need an overhaul of the game, but surely you can agree that they are more deserving of a spot then a Great Spy. As many have already stated, who will these people be? A truly great spy is unkown, because thats what makes a great spy.
gettingfat
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Just call spying national security then. Isn't it how politicians in reality sugar-coat it?
I do think they should put a cap on certain sliders. I don't think any people in any country will accept the fact that 100% of their income tax has gone to "national security" expenditure. Maybe cap it at 30%.
I do think they should put a cap on certain sliders. I don't think any people in any country will accept the fact that 100% of their income tax has gone to "national security" expenditure. Maybe cap it at 30%.
Gaius Octavius
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I think the Great Spy is downright ridiculous, and when it was first announced I was very worried about corporations, too. Just sounds like a religion clone in the late game--nothing interesting there, and arguably repetitive.
An intelligence overhaul is badly needed, but I don't think this was the way to go. I'd have preferred a more Civ-3ish way of doing things, with a centralized control instead of more units to move around. And I don't like having to sacrifice money and research for better spying. But I'll hold off judgment, for now...
An intelligence overhaul is badly needed, but I don't think this was the way to go. I'd have preferred a more Civ-3ish way of doing things, with a centralized control instead of more units to move around. And I don't like having to sacrifice money and research for better spying. But I'll hold off judgment, for now...
I don't agree. Introducing a great explorer or a great admiral would add nothing new to the game - would serve no point. There are many uses that a great spy can be put to;
1) settled in a city; reduces 'it's too crowded' unhappiness by 10% - 20%
2) has better odds of completing spying missions.
3) can create a center of espionage operations in other civs (reduces risk of missions in that civ)
4) can create an espionage center in one of your own cities which provides bonuses to the amount of espionage points generated by that city.
I'm not saying that all of these can or should be implemented. I'm just saying that there is lots of room for improvement in espionage and a great spy unit can provide a game mechanic to unlock some espionage features.
I also consider whatever acts the great spy unit performs to be of greater significance to the game than what the spy happens to be called. I do hope that the whole world doesn't recieve the message 'John Smith (great spy) has been born in London' but that's because the presence of spies should be secret.
Spying does need an overhaul. I'm glad that the espionage slider is being introduced for two reasons:
1) in CivIV terms, an espionage slider is essentially a foreign policy slider.
2) I'd much rather see more advanced espionage conducted through a new game mechanic than solely through spy units.
The espionage slider may prove to be a poor addition to the game but there's no reason so far to dismiss it.
I prefered CivIII's espionage as well (about the only mechanic I prefered in that game). But you did have to sacrifice money and research for better spying in CivIII. An espionage slider that acrues 'espionage points' isn't much different to from paying for espionage with gold.
50_dollar_bag
Imitation Louis Vuitton
It was mentioned that Great Spies are generated like other Great People e.g. Great Scientists, Great Prophets etc. Is it going to be independent like Great Generals or mixed in with the other GP pool? EDIT: now I think about it, it has to be independent really.
Can't you build roads in BtS anymore?
Can't you build roads in BtS anymore?
