New Civics, History Rewritten

[Howard Mahler]

I am still bothered by the fact that due to the programing of the game, one gets no trade bonus until a trade route reaches 7. This will usually happen early in the Industrial era. Until then there is no trade benefit at all.

Even when you get a benefit, +15% is usually weaker than an extra trade route (as per Free Markets.) If for example you currently have 4 trade routes, an extra one per city is worth more than +15% on your existing trade routes.

So very early on "-50% maintenance costs for distance from palace" is worthwhile.
Then once Monarchy and some other Government Civics become available, they are usually better than Confederation.
Confederation can compete again when trade routes reach size 7.

Somehow this just does not have the right feel for a Civic names Confederation.

I still think that something that makes Confederation a little more valuable in the middle game would help.

No need to respond.


"Yep, Confederation is designed for a trading empire. The 15% means that a trade route gets an extra commerce for every 7 that it generates. In practice this means that a civ with an established trade network will be generating an extra commerce per trade route. The very best routes will be generating 2 extra.

However, 25% means that it will generate an extra commerce after every 4. This is way too powerful as a late game trade route can generate 12 commerce, becoming 15. And when you consider that a single city can have 5 or more trade routes... that's a HUGE commerce increase. And wonders like the Great Lighthouse can make it even more ridiculous.

I originally tried 20% but I found that even that became overpowered. The AI was abandoning their favourite civics in favour of Confederation - a sure sign that something is overpowered. 15% seems to be the sweet spot for balance. It takes to build a good trade network but the civic makes it worthwhile if you do."

 

[Xyth]

Atm I haven't made any changes to the civics for 0.9 yet because I've been focussing on the tech tree and founding religions. Once those are finished I'll be going through this thread and tweaking/reworking the civics. This feedback has been great.

State Property:

Similar to Civilization IV, except available much earlier in the game and the benefit to maintenance is weaker. In Civilization IV, there is no maintenance cost due to distance from the palace.

I think State Property should be strengthened somewhat.
Perhaps you could add +2 happiness for a Factory.

In 0.9 it's being renamed Redistribution and will be available even earlier (from Record Keeping, which only requires Agriculture and Calendar). I'll probably strengthen it a little by making the +1 food and production apply to an additional improvement as well, especially since workshops aren't available until Medieval times. I've not decided which yet.

Professionalism:

Even without the +1 commerce per town, it is stronger than Mercantilism in Civilization IV, which has the penalty of no foreign trade routes. Professionalism seems somewhat too strong.

Yeah I'm not happy with the commerce bonus to towns, I might move that elsewhere and substitute something weaker. I can't make the free specialist dependent on a building unfortuately.

Jurisdiction also gives +1 specialist per city. There is nothing terrible about this, but more variety might be better.

There are quite a few civics that have similar bonuses (Jurisdiction + Professionalism, Confederation + Mercantilism, Aristocracy +Redistribution, Authoritarianism + Warrior Code, etc). Because I was technically restricted in the types of bonuses I could give I had to split up or repeat a fair few existing bonuses in order to create a further 11 civics. Does lack some variety but hopefully it creates some useful synergy as well.

Mercantilism:

In Civilization IV foreign corporations have no effect, and the maintenance and commerce bonuses are replaced by +1 specialist per city. This version is significantly weaker than that in Civilization IV, and I think needs to made significantly stronger.

Possibilities for additional bonuses for Mercantilism: +1 commerce per town, +100% commerce in the capital, or just +10% commerce in all cities.

I'll boost the commerce bonus in the capital to 100%. I think this fits the best thematically.

Free Markets:

Similar to Civilization IV, but there the 50% reduction is just 25%.

Free Markets was already strong enough, if not a little too strong.
I would return the 50% to 25%.

Agreed.

Fundamentalism:

Theocracy in Civilization IV has the +2 experience points, as well as no spread of non-state religion.
Fundamentalism seems OK.

It might be nice to have something other than increased training speed, so that both bonuses don’t relate directly to military.
For example, instead in cities with the state religion one could have some bonus for priests or allow unlimited priests.
(With unlimited priests , you might want to increase the culture penalty to for example 50%.)

I need to revamp Theocracy in the Government category so I could potentially shift some bonuses around with Fundamentalism at the same time.

Altruism:

It is not clear why the great person bonus only applies in cities with the state religion, while the culture bonus applies all cities.
Don’t quite see the relationship of Altruism and the culture bonus.

I was thinking charity and patronage with the civic (indeed it will be unlocked by a tech called Patronage), great people = philanthropists and humanitarians guided by spiritual belief, culture bonus = patronage of the arts.

Is there some way to get a diplomatic plus with other countries because you are altruistic?

Probably but I'm reluctant to go there as I can foresee all sorts of AI issues in trying to implement it.

Perhaps being altruistic could mitigate the diplomatic effects of having the “wrong” religion.

That's a very cool idea, I have no idea if that's possible but I'll look into it when I have time.

Rationalism:

It is probably my playing style, but while unlimited scientist is a nice bonus, I do not think Rationalism is strong enough to compete.
Any city with the state religion merely breaks even on happiness if it has a School.
Cities without the state religion may end up with a happiness bonus.
So I would say the happiness bonus and penalty are at best on average a wash.

I think Rationalism might work better with no state religion (as per Free Religion),
-1 happiness per religion in a city, Unlimited Scientists, +2 happiness for School, and a small culture bonus.

That was a deliberate design decision, I wanted it to be a penalty that could be overcome. Thinking about it now it's kind of silly. Unlimited scientists is pretty powerful though so I don't want to strengthen it too much. I also want don't want to go down the no state religion route as that makes the civic too much like some sort of state atheism which is very unrealistic for the era it becomes available (the Renaissance).

At the very least I'll decrease the penalty to 1 unhappiness per religion, but I'll have a think about other options when the time comes.

Free Religion:

Very similar to Free Religion in Civilization IV, except Low Upkeep has been increased to Medium Upkeep, and the science bonus has been changed from +10% to +1 beaker per specialist.

The new version is weaker. I prefer the Civilization IV version of Free Religion.

I'm not sure why I raised the upkeep, I can easily revert it to Low. I got rid of the +10% research as it scales too well. I can always up the research bonus of specialists to +2 if necessary. That makes it more powerful, especially when in conjunction with any other civic that gives unlimited specialists. Too powerful maybe?

It seems logical that Industrialism should apply its bonus to a quarry as well as a mine.

I left it out because stone and marble weren't very significant materials in the Industrial era.

 

[Keinpferd]

Agrarianism:
Requires Animal Husbandry
Low Upkeep.
-100% growth from Cottage, Hamlet, Village
Military Units produced with food (as per Settlers or Workers)
+1 hammer from Farm, Plantation, Pasture

A good idea for a new civic.

The building of military units with food is way too strong!
This civic is available very early. Very early in the game, the negative features do not matter that much, but one can very quickly build up an unstoppable military. Military units are produced faster than using Slavery. The lack of growth does not matter for a city that has reached its happiness limit, which is usually the case for your capitol in the early game. If your capitol has several sea food tiles, then this feature can be devastating early.
After the very early game until the late game I am unlikely to use Agrarianism, since other civics have very good features while the negative growth for villages. etc., is is significant.
Late in the game, when there is not much growth left for villages anyway, the building of military units with food feature combined with Sid’s Sushi is totally overpowering.
(Sid’s Sushi is already extremely powerful.)[…]

I wonder why nobody hasn't thought of a food-to-military-conversion civic earlier, because it's, for one thing, such a nice way of rebalancing rather one-sided desert and floodplain starting positions with no hills and trees on realistic maps. Eventually, I played a few rounds of version 0.8 as Amorites on a customized realistic Middle East Map. If you came up with that idea originally, Xyth, it's just very good modding! I didn't catch up with what the latest word was on Agrarianism, but there should probably be more drawbacks besides the hamlet-growth-penalty. Make it a bit more expensive, simply? It's also possible to have a civic increase corporation's upkeep in the civic xml, isn't it? As a way to avoid a too strong synergy with Sushi Inc..

 

[Howard Mahler]

Low upkeep would help.
I think +2 science per specialist would be fine.
Perhaps +1 science and +1 gold per specialist would be better.
Regardless, I think you need to find some way to strengthen Free Religion.

"I'm not sure why I raised the upkeep, I can easily revert it to Low. I got rid of the +10% research as it scales too well. I can always up the research bonus of specialists to +2 if necessary. That makes it more powerful, especially when in conjunction with any other civic that gives unlimited specialists. Too powerful maybe?"

 

[Howard Mahler]

Patronage and Altruism are somewhat different.
It might be better to rename the civic Patronage and come up with a coherent idea of the proper overall strength.
Or keep the name as Altruism and make the benefits and penalties fit better with that name.

The Great Person and culture bonuses make sense for Patronage.
The Great Persons being limited to cities with the state religion maybe represents the patronage of the established church.
I am not sure why there would be War Weariness connected with Patronage.

Perhaps, Patronage:
+50% Great Person Birth Rate in cities with state religion,
+25% Great Person Birth Rate in all other cities.
+50% Culture in cities with state religion, +25% culture in all other cities.
Not sure whether this would be too strong without a penalty.
Not sure what an appropriate penalty would be; I do not like War Weariness.
Maybe a -25% penalty when building any building that does not generate culture,
and/or -25% penalty on building military units.
Other possible bonuses could involve colosseums and/or theatres.

Regardless, I think this civic needs work.

"I was thinking charity and patronage with the civic (indeed it will be unlocked by a tech called Patronage), great people = philanthropists and humanitarians guided by spiritual belief, culture bonus = patronage of the arts."
"Altruism:
Requires Theology
Medium Upkeep
+50% Great Person Birth Rate in cities with state religion
+50% War Weariness
+25% culture in all cities"

 

[Howard Mahler]

I would be happy to look over the draft of your new version of civics once you have it.

 

[Xyth]

I wonder why nobody hasn't thought of a food-to-military-conversion civic earlier, because it's, for one thing, such a nice way of rebalancing rather one-sided desert and floodplain starting positions with no hills and trees on realistic maps. Eventually, I played a few rounds of version 0.8 as Amorites on a customized realistic Middle East Map. If you came up with that idea originally, Xyth, it's just very good modding! I didn't catch up with what the latest word was on Agrarianism, but there should probably be more drawbacks besides the hamlet-growth-penalty. Make it a bit more expensive, simply? It's also possible to have a civic increase corporation's upkeep in the civic xml, isn't it? As a way to avoid a too strong synergy with Sushi Inc..

The situation you describe was my original design intent for Agrarianism, though lately I've been toying with it as a Medieval era civic (unsuccessfully). Atm I'm thinking I will probably have to get rid of the food-to-build-military-units because I keep finding situations where it gets unbalanced - especially once a city reaches it's viable growth limit.

I definitely want to retain the concept of making starts without forests/jungles/hills viable and being a useful alternative to Slavery. I'll see what's possible when I start the civics review for 0.9.

Even though Caste System suits the ancient era thematically I'll probably shift that to the Medieval era instead as it's bonuses are more appropriate for that stage of the game anyway.

I would be happy to look over the draft of your new version of civics once you have it.

Progress is going well on the rest of 0.9 so I should be able to start focussing on the civics review sometime this coming week. I'll definitely post the draft here.

 

[Xyth]

Sorry about the lengthy delay (damn earthquakes) but here is the first draft of the civics for 0.9. I ended up making quite a lot of changes; many bonuses have been shuffled around, some penalties removed, some dangerous synergies prevented, and the number of repeated bonuses reduced. The feedback in this thread has been extremely helpful with this process.

Let me know what you think, particularly if you spot any civics that appear too strong or weak compared to the others in their category (note though that some of later civics in the Legal category are deliberately stronger). I'd especially like your thoughts on the new Redistribution civic as it's another attempt to make "military units produced with food" work.



Government

Despotism
Low Upkeep

Monarchy
Requires: Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% production in capital
• +50% commerce in capital

Theocracy
Requires: Theology
Medium Upkeep
• +2 happiness per city with state religion
• +25% military unit production in cities with state religion

Aristocracy
Requires: Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from number of cities
• +2 happiness from Castles

Confederation
Requires: Guilds
High Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from distance from palace
• +25% espionage in all cities

Democracy
Requires: Politics
High Upkeep
• +50% Great Person emergence
• +1 production and commerce from Village, Town​

Legal

Barbarism
Low Upkeep

Tradition
Requires: Oral Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 happiness from Monument
• +25% culture in all cities

Authoritarianism
Requires: Law
High Upkeep
• +1 happiness per military unit stationed in a city

Codification
Requires: Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +1 happiness from Library

Jurisdiction
Requires: Journalism
Medium Upkeep
• 1 free specialist per city
• +1 happiness from Courthouse

Equal Rights
Requires: TBD
Medium Upkeep
• Happiness penalty for civs without Equal Rights
• +5 happiness in largest cities​

Labour

Tribalism
Low upkeep

Agrarianism
Requires: Calendar
Low Upkeep
• +2 health from Granary
• +1 production from Farm, Pasture, Plantation, Winery

Slavery
Requires: Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 unhealthiness in all cities
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

Caste System
Requires: Divination
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• Workers build improvements 50% faster

Industrialism
Requires: Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +1 wealth and research from specialists

Emancipation
Requires: TBD
High Upkeep
• Happiness penalty for civs without Emancipation
• Can spend wealth to finish production​

Economy

Reciprocity
Low upkeep

Redistribution
Requires: Record Keeping
High Upkeep
• Military units produced with food
• +1 support cost per military unit
• Corporations have no effect

Professionalism
Requires: Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +1 food and commerce from Workshops
• +2 happiness from Market

Mercantilism
Requires: Economics
Medium Upkeep
•+1 free specialist per city
• +100% commerce from trade routes
• No foreign trade routes

Free Market
Requires: Corporation
Medium Upkeep
• -25% maintenance costs from corporations
• +1 trade route per city

Environmentalism
Requires: Ecology
High Upkeep
• +25% maintenance costs from corporations
• No unhealthiness from city population
• +2 commerce from Windmill, Forest Preserve​

Military

Militia
Low upkeep

Conscription
Requires: Property
Low Upkeep
• Can draft units each turn
• -25% wealth needed to upgrade units

Clan Warfare
Requires: Riding
Low Upkeep
• No war weariness
• +25% maintenance costs for number of cities
• +100% wealth from pillaging

Warrior Code
Requires: Steel Working
Medium Upkeep
• +100% Great General emergence
• +50% experience gained from combat within own borders
• +25% culture in all cities

Vassalage
Requires: Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• More military units with free upkeep
• New units receive +2 experience

Professional Army
Requires: Employment
High Upkeep
• +25% military unit production
• +2 happiness from Barracks​

Religion

Paganism
Low Upkeep

Organized Religion
Requires: Priesthood
High Upkeep
• Can train Missionaries without a Monastery
• Cities with state religion construct buildings 25% faster

Fundamentalism
Requires: Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited priests
• +2 experience in cities with state religion
• No spread of non-state religions

Altruism
Requires: Patronage
Medium Upkeep
• +50% Great Person emergence in cities with state religion
• +2 culture per specialist

Rationalism
Requires: Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited scientists
• +2 happiness from School

Free Religion
Requires: TBD
Medium Upkeep
• No state religion
• +1 happiness per religion in a city
• +2 research per specialist​

 

[Duke Blackstone]

Democracy and Professionalism are really weak, comparitively. Can we see a tech tree? That might change

 

[Xyth]

Diagram of the tech tree attached. Note that there's probably a few wonders or such not listed on there yet, I didn't check too thoroughly. Industrial era onwards are not going to be changed in 0.9.

Democracy: I can easily drop the war weariness penalty and/or extend the bonuses to villages as well as towns.

Professionalism: Assuming because workshops are considered undesirable compared to cottage/farm/etc? I can make that part of the bonus stronger or add something extra (happiness for market?)

 

[Duke Blackstone]

Yes.. The happiness for market would work wonderfully. For Democracy, I think that adding the bonus for villages would balance it some. I'll have to see how the NPC's react when you post the patch. I really like the new tech tree too.

 

[Xyth]

Yes.. The happiness for market would work wonderfully. For Democracy, I think that adding the bonus for villages would balance it some. I'll have to see how the NPC's react when you post the patch. I really like the new tech tree too.

Okay, updated the list with the suggested changes. I dropped the war weariness penalty from Democracy as well for the time being, see how it plays out.

0.9 is nearly finished now, I just need to tidy up a bunch of loose ends and do some final testing. Hope to have it uploaded sometime in the next week.

I've decided that after 0.9 I'm going to start making smaller patches more regularly rather than these big ones that take months. So the next patch will be 0.9.1, then 0.9.2 etc. Given something as integral as the tech tree has changed I imagine I'll need to respond to any imbalances and bugs more quickly.

 

[Howard Mahler]

After quick read through,
Mercantilism seems very weak.
In most game situations I would rather have no civic at all instead of this.

Yes it would be useful in those situations where you have an isolated start or are enemies with everyone you have met.
These are not enough to make it on a par with the others.

I thought your previous version of Mercantilism was too weak.
This one seems even weaker.

No foreign trade routes is a very big penalty that needs a very good bonus or bonuses to make the civic worthwhile.
Increasing the remaining trade routes seems mostly to ameliorate the penalty somewhat.

 

[s.bernbaum]

I agree with Howard. On unmodded BTS, I rarely use Mercantilism because by the time it is available it is inferior to almost everything else. You have made it even weaker, so I don't see why it would be used by anyone.

 

[Xyth]

Whoops, looks like I neglected to update my list when I updated it in game. Mercantilism is meant to look like this:

Mercantilism
Requires: Economics
Medium Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +100% commerce from trade routes
• No foreign trade routes

Meant for isolationists but will take founding far flung colonies to reap the most benefit. The +100% commerce can be raised or lowered as appropriate.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Democracy:
Without the war weariness I think this is too strong.
Perhaps +25% war weariness rather than +50% war weariness might be OK.
I think it was OK as it was in Version 0.8.

Tradition:
Seems weak.
Perhaps you increase the culture bonus.

Industrialism:
New version seems a little too strong.
I do not think we need both a bonus to wealth and research.

Mercantilism
Requires: Economics
Medium Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +100% commerce from trade routes
• No foreign trade routes

I would put back the no effect from foreign corporations from Civ IV.
Also it seems too strong; I would significantly scale back the trade route bonus, maybe to 50%.

Warrior Code:
Seems a little weak.
Perhaps you can increase the experience and/or culture bonuses.

Professional Army:
Seems a little weak.
Perhaps you can increase the size of one or both bonuses.


I realize that you will have to finalize this all very soon.
Obviously we will all have to see how your final version of the civics works by playing the game.

 

[Xyth]

Democracy:
Without the war weariness I think this is too strong.
Perhaps +25% war weariness rather than +50% war weariness might be OK.
I think it was OK as it was in Version 0.8.

Yeah I'll try it at +25% war weariness, good compromise. Since 0.8 I've increased the upkeep from Low to High which part of the reason I strengthened the effects. The +2 production of 0.8 was changed to +1 production and commerce because I've removed some of the bonuses villages and towns get from the tech tree - I want cottage spam to be a bit more of an active choice rather than almost always the best thing to do.

Tradition:
Seems weak.
Perhaps you increase the culture bonus.

I was originally going to add a second building that grants a happiness bonus but never decided which one. Any suggestions? I avoided increasing the culture bonus further or it might become synergize too well with other civics, but I'm not completely against the idea.

This is the one civic category where each civic is meant to be a little stronger than the last. So in an average game most people would want to go from Barbarism to Tradition to Codification to Jurisdiction to Equal Rights more or less as soon as they are unlocked. Authoritarianism is a bit different.

Industrialism:
New version seems a little too strong.
I do not think we need both a bonus to wealth and research.

I could always bring back the +2 unhealthiness in all cities penalty - do you think that would be enough to balance it?

Mercantilism
Requires: Economics
Medium Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +100% commerce from trade routes
• No foreign trade routes

I would put back the no effect from foreign corporations from Civ IV.
Also it seems too strong; I would significantly scale back the trade route bonus, maybe to 50%.

Ooh I forgot about the foreign corporations, I'll definitely add that. The exact % for the commerce bonus is going to be tough to balance right, but 50% seems a reasonable place to start.

Alternatively I could drop the free specialist, keep the 100% commerce bonus and add no foreign corporations. This appeals to me more thematically, but balance wise I'm not sure. What do you think?

Warrior Code:
Seems a little weak.
Perhaps you can increase the experience and/or culture bonuses.

Yeah I was thinking about the increasing the experience bonus, possibly as high as 100%. Would make it a solid civic for the protectionist. What do you think?

Professional Army:
Seems a little weak.
Perhaps you can increase the size of one or both bonuses.

I'm not so sure on this one, I've significantly strengthened it from 0.8 by removing the extra support cost. Also, although it's listed last in the category it's available a fair bit earlier than both Warrior Code and Vassalage (I tend to order the civics thematically).

I realize that you will have to finalize this all very soon.
Obviously we will all have to see how your final version of the civics works by playing the game.

I'm aiming to make smaller, more regular updates (0.9.1, 0.9.2, etc) after 0.9 so I'll be able to fix any balance issues much more readily.

How does Redistribution look to you? Do you think it's enough to fix the problems 0.8 Agrarianism had?

 

[Howard Mahler]

Tradition: Maybe +1 happiness for Cemetery.
In addition or instead, a weird idea, +1 per wonder (in the city in which it is built.)
(Maybe only for National Wonders, rather than all Wonders.)

Industrialism: Maybe you can try -1 unhealthiness and see how that works.
(You can instead try -2 unhealthiness, but I am uncertain about the strength of this civic until I see it in action.)

Warrior Code: Even increasing the experience bonus to 100%, I think it would still be a little weak.
Maybe also +1 happiness per stables.

Mercantilism: Yes, try +50% trade route bonus.

Redistribution: The food for military units looks better than it was in Version 0.8.
Record Keeping will take longer to get than Animal Husbandry.
The +1 cost per military unit is a bummer.
The no effect from corporations removes the problem of the interaction with Sid's Sushi.
I still have my doubts, but this is much better than the previous version.
A strategy would be to switch to Redistribution soon after one gets Record Keeping,
build lots of military units, and then switch back out of Redistribution in order to avoid the extra cost of maintaining all these units.

I hope this is helpful.

You have put in a lot of work on just this one aspect of the mod!

Originally Posted by Howard Mahler
Democracy:
Without the war weariness I think this is too strong.
Perhaps +25% war weariness rather than +50% war weariness might be OK.
I think it was OK as it was in Version 0.8.
Yeah I'll try it at +25% war weariness, good compromise. Since 0.8 I've increased the upkeep from Low to High which part of the reason I strengthened the effects. The +2 production of 0.8 was changed to +1 production and commerce because I've removed some of the bonuses villages and towns get from the tech tree - I want cottage spam to be a bit more of an active choice rather than almost always the best thing to do.

Quote:
Tradition:
Seems weak.
Perhaps you increase the culture bonus.
I was originally going to add a second building that grants a happiness bonus but never decided which one. Any suggestions? I avoided increasing the culture bonus further or it might become synergize too well with other civics, but I'm not completely against the idea.

This is the one civic category where each civic is meant to be a little stronger than the last. So in an average game most people would want to go from Barbarism to Tradition to Codification to Jurisdiction to Equal Rights more or less as soon as they are unlocked. Authoritarianism is a bit different.

Quote:
Industrialism:
New version seems a little too strong.
I do not think we need both a bonus to wealth and research.
I could always bring back the +2 unhealthiness in all cities penalty - do you think that would be enough to balance it?

Quote:
Mercantilism
Requires: Economics
Medium Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +100% commerce from trade routes
• No foreign trade routes

I would put back the no effect from foreign corporations from Civ IV.
Also it seems too strong; I would significantly scale back the trade route bonus, maybe to 50%.
Ooh I forgot about the foreign corporations, I'll definitely add that. The exact % for the commerce bonus is going to be tough to balance right, but 50% seems a reasonable place to start.

Alternatively I could drop the free specialist, keep the 100% commerce bonus and add no foreign corporations. This appeals to me more thematically, but balance wise I'm not sure. What do you think?

Quote:
Warrior Code:
Seems a little weak.
Perhaps you can increase the experience and/or culture bonuses.
Yeah I was thinking about the increasing the experience bonus, possibly as high as 100%. Would make it a solid civic for the protectionist. What do you think?

Quote:
Professional Army:
Seems a little weak.
Perhaps you can increase the size of one or both bonuses.
I'm not so sure on this one, I've significantly strengthened it from 0.8 by removing the extra support cost. Also, although it's listed last in the category it's available a fair bit earlier than both Warrior Code and Vassalage (I tend to order the civics thematically).

Quote:
I realize that you will have to finalize this all very soon.
Obviously we will all have to see how your final version of the civics works by playing the game.
I'm aiming to make smaller, more regular updates (0.9.1, 0.9.2, etc) after 0.9 so I'll be able to fix any balance issues much more readily.

How does Redistribution look to you? Do you think it's enough to fix the problems 0.8 Agrarianism had?

 

[Howard Mahler]

Seems like there are many interesting changes and additions.
Some first impression comments on the Tech Tree.

1. I hope you are not wedded to the geometric pattern for its own sake.
2. I count 60 techs versus 57 for BTS (over the same eras).
I had hoped for a larger increase in the number of Techs.
3. I assume in some cases units will require additional techs.
For example, I assume Galleons and Frigates will need shipbuilding.
4. I play mostly on archipelago maps. The era of the caravel seems much more limited than in BTS; the caravel comes later than it did in BTS.
5. I play mostly on archipelago maps. The tech Charter seems like a very important Tech: Galleon, Frigate, Custom House. It might be better if you could find a way to spread these out a little more.
6. Cannon comes significantly earlier than in BTS, unless it will also require some other tech.
Might need to have two units: early cannon and more advanced cannon.
Otherwise, Cannon will be the dominant land unit for a long while.
7. Not sure why you got rid of Alphabet.
(I see where you spread some of it out among other techs, but Alphabet was a major discovery/invention.)

Besides checking that you have not left out any Wonders, you should do a final check to see if any units, buildings or civics have been left off of the Tech Tree.

I hope this helps a little.

Diagram of the tech tree attached. Note that there's probably a few wonders or such not listed on there yet, I didn't check too thoroughly. Industrial era onwards are not going to be changed in 0.9.

 

[Xyth]

Tradition: Maybe +1 happiness for Cemetery.
In addition or instead, a weird idea, +1 per wonder (in the city in which it is built.)
(Maybe only for National Wonders, rather than all Wonders.)

Cemetery works, I'll add that. Wonders is a good idea but would be a lot of work to try implement, getting the AI to understand it and such.

Warrior Code: Even increasing the experience bonus to 100%, I think it would still be a little weak.
Maybe also +1 happiness per stables.

Happiness for stables fits well, I'll add that.

A strategy would be to switch to Redistribution soon after one gets Record Keeping,build lots of military units, and then switch back out of Redistribution in order to avoid the extra cost of maintaining all these units.

Hmm this is certainly a problem. I could put the no growth of cottages/etc back in but that's starting to become a lot of penalties just to balance one bonus. In the end I'm not committed to the 'military units built with food thing, it's an interesting mechanic but not essential to retain.

I hope this is helpful.

You have put in a lot of work on just this one aspect of the mod!

It's very helpful. All this constructive criticism helps makes working on the civics much more motivating and productive.

1. I hope you are not wedded to the geometric pattern for its own sake.

I never intended to stick to the pattern as strictly as I did but I went along I found it a incredibly useful way to balance the progression of the tree. It's also much, much easier to follow and plan paths on than the default tech tree.

2. I count 60 techs versus 57 for BTS (over the same eras).
I had hoped for a larger increase in the number of Techs.

It's more 60 techs versus (roughly) 50. My first few designs had 8 rows in certain eras but it was just too many and a lot of techs felt superfluous or uninteresting. So I cut it down to 7 rows and then 6. Eventually I'd like to add a 7th row back in, at least to some eras.

3. I assume in some cases units will require additional techs.
For example, I assume Galleons and Frigates will need shipbuilding.

Yes. Many units and wonders require additional techs to the one that unlocks them. Ships and mounted units in particular.

4. I play mostly on archipelago maps. The era of the caravel seems much more limited than in BTS; the caravel comes later than it did in BTS.

I felt this was more accurate historically, though I can see how that might not be preferable. I'll revisit this in a later version.

5. I play mostly on archipelago maps. The tech Charter seems like a very important Tech: Galleon, Frigate, Custom House. It might be better if you could find a way to spread these out a little more.

That's a tough era because so many new units become available in such a short space of historical time. When I add the Industrial era I'll see if I can stretch the Age of Sail out a bit more at the same time.

6. Cannon comes significantly earlier than in BTS, unless it will also require some other tech.
Might need to have two units: early cannon and more advanced cannon.
Otherwise, Cannon will be the dominant land unit for a long while.

I'm going to add a new unit, the Bombard. It will be available with Gunpowder and the Cannon will be available closer to the Industrial era. This is one of the last things I need to add to 0.9 before it's ready.

7. Not sure why you got rid of Alphabet.
(I see where you spread some of it out among other techs, but Alphabet was a major discovery/invention.)

I dropped Alphabet because not every culture has it and while I agree it is significant, civilizations like China have done remarkably well without one. It felt strange having later techs require the Alphabet when historically, they haven't.

If/when I add a 7th row of techs I'll reconsider it though.

Besides checking that you have not left out any Wonders, you should do a final check to see if any units, buildings or civics have been left off of the Tech Tree.

Definitely. I've already done several passes at this but I'll undoubtably do another before release. The diagram I posted is not as up to date as the in-game tree too.