New Feature Request: Partial Hammers/More Detailed Hammers

damunzy

recovering former mod
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I was watching a new city of mine that didn't have the state religion in it building a granary. It was to be completed in 24 turns.
For my Civics I currently have Religion: State Church (cities with RELIGION construct buildings +20% faster) and Welfare: Church (cities with RELIGION construct buildings +25% faster).
The next turn the granary is set to be completed in 23 turns. My Gentleman (Confucianism religion spreader) 'settles' there this turn spreading the RELIGION. The granary is still showing completion in 23 turns. No problem, I figure that it will take a turn to become active.
Next turn shows 22 turns for completion. The city screen says that there is the 45% bonus applied but I guess that hammers don't get partial credit like money does? I would expect that the structure should be done in 16 turns.

So, my request is that Hammers get the same treatment that Money/Gold does.

Spoiler :
 
I was watching a new city of mine that didn't have the state religion in it building a granary. It was to be completed in 24 turns.
For my Civics I currently have Religion: State Church (cities with RELIGION construct buildings +20% faster) and Welfare: Church (cities with RELIGION construct buildings +25% faster).
The next turn the granary is set to be completed in 23 turns. My Gentleman (Confucianism religion spreader) 'settles' there this turn spreading the RELIGION. The granary is still showing completion in 23 turns. No problem, I figure that it will take a turn to become active.
Next turn shows 22 turns for completion. The city screen says that there is the 45% bonus applied but I guess that hammers don't get partial credit like money does? I would expect that the structure should be done in 16 turns.

So, my request is that Hammers get the same treatment that Money/Gold does.

Spoiler :

I have experienced that it does, but this screenshot shows a 2 :hammers: city. 2:hammers: +45% = 2:hammers: since it rounds down. if you built the wheelwright, then you would have seen the bonus, since it wouldn't have gotten erased by rounding.
 
I have experienced that it does, but this screenshot shows a 2 :hammers: city. 2:hammers: +45% = 2:hammers: since it rounds down. if you built the wheelwright, then you would have seen the bonus, since it wouldn't have gotten erased by rounding.

I believe that the hammers rounding down is exactly what damunzy is talking about:)

Having hammer fractions recorded from turn to turn would indeed be a very welcome change.
 
2 +45% is 2.9, so it would have to be a very brutual rounding down to not round it up to 3 :)
 
2 +45% is 2.9, so it would have to be a very brutual rounding down to not round it up to 3 :)

I believe floor is the function used, and while I haven't read the code in question, I've read in other threads that floor is used in lots of places a 'normal person' would expect normal rounding.
 
I believe floor is the function used, and while I haven't read the code in question, I've read in other threads that floor is used in lots of places a 'normal person' would expect normal rounding.

Yes, it is. What damunzy is asking for is fractional production, like we have fractional trade.

It is a major game change, and I face a conundrum. If I change production, everyone will want all the yields to be fractional, and all the commerce's too. So I either change everything, or nothing.
 
Thank you, Afforess, for subtly deferring the matter until a much later time! We already have a lot to adjust to for the time being :).

I still insist on Defense infobar/hover-over because it is more of helpful feature "BUG-style" than game-changing due to overwhelming number of Defense modifier changing buildings :).
 
Thank you, Afforess, for subtly deferring the matter until a much later time! We already have a lot to adjust to for the time being :).
:mischief:

I still insist on Defense infobar/hover-over because it is more of helpful feature "BUG-style" than game-changing due to overwhelming number of Defense modifier changing buildings :).

Actually, I'm just putting the finishing touches on it. I'll post a screenshot in a few minutes. ;)
 
Yes, it is. What damunzy is asking for is fractional production, like we have fractional trade.

It is a major game change, and I face a conundrum. If I change production, everyone will want all the yields to be fractional, and all the commerce's too. So I either change everything, or nothing.

last time I checked culture, science and wealth were fraction(able) so what else would need to be converted?
 
what about a simplier solution: correctly rounding. this wouldn't do much damage (<0.5 roundig down, 0.5>= roundig up). still small percentual changes woun't have effect in cities with small production. but the differeces between floating point and rounded values will be a lesser one.
 
Ah, I was only thinking it was one item left out (hammers). Well, for a later future change then please. :D

 
Why stop at yields? Rife (via Fall Further) has decimal xp.

Which is to say, yeah, there's plenty else that can be done as fractions. But since trade routes are giving fractional returns, shouldn't yields already be available as fractions?
 
Why stop at yields? Rife (via Fall Further) has decimal xp.

Fractional XP would be really cool in AND, as would the Worker-Experience feature from Fall Further (or was it FFPlus?) :D
 
Worker XP is in both, but if (stressing the if) Afforess wanted to include that, I'd strongly recommend using the XP system from Flat_XP for RifE (formerly FF+). And if he was going to do that, I'd ask him to take a look at giving XP from structures through training rather than immediate awards on unit creation, but something would need to be done to adjust Great Generals which are not used in FfH at all like in BTS. Perhaps giving GG the same functionality as Great Commanders in RifE (think Civ3's armies, but much improved).

You know, 'if.'
 
You guys are a riot, you know that. :p

How about this for an answer, Yes, Yes, Yes! I will add Fractional Yields. I will add Fractional XP. I will add XP from training buildings. (As for the Rife Commanders, I haven't played FFH2 before [treason, I know], so you could do me a favor by explaining a bit.).

However, none of this will make 1.60.

This is right below "It's the Economy, Stupid!" (KonradCabrel's Ideas) on my 1.70 list.
 
I took a long time to try to play FfH because I could never decide which civ I wanted to try because they are radically different from each other. Really long explanation follows:
Spoiler :
But let's skip FfH's Great Commander. Those can be used to raise a small army (one unit per three population of the city he's standing in) or make a training facility (extra production for military units and bonus xp), either of which destroys the unit. Alternatively, The GC can join a single unit (like a Warlord (S) or a Noble) giving it +1 base strength and some bonus to xp per battle, I think. And you can detach them later if you have another unit you want to level up.

FF and it's modmods expand on the GCs significantly. In RifE, the GC can raise a small army or make a training facility once but is not used up in the process. Also some buildings generate GC points the similar to other GPP sources (I think those go directly into the Combat XP counter on the military advisor screen, but I'm not sure as it isn't used at all in FfH where a GC is just one of the GP you get from a city every once in a while).

But the main thing GC do is they can lead groups of units. Initially you can tell up to three units to be assigned to your GC. This doesn't immediately do anything for them. But when they win in combat, the GC gets some XP in proportion to what they earn (I don't know what the rate is or if it reduces the amount they would have gotten). When a GC levels up, he gets promotions like Combat, March, or any of the terrain promotions, but he applies them only to the units under his command, and only when they are in his tile. He can also get promotions which increase the number of units he can command (up to three more) and the range (this I don't know off the top of my head, but I think its also three)at which he can command (at which his promotions affect) them. Unlike Civ3, you can remove units from his command any time after the turn they join and you can replace them if destroyed. GC are defensive only (strength 5) and their are issues with their speed relative to other units in the game (especially, I hear Hippus mounted units), but when I've had them, they'vs been pretty useful.

Going one step beyond that is the Bannor Chain of Command module (Bannor are a specific very military minded civ). They more or less ignore the GC, but early on can get a promotion (and I'm sure I'll get these in the wrong order) Corporal which gives an XP bonus to everyone above them in the chain of command (but has no value to its unit-it's potentially detrimental as I think it makes the unit more likely to defend its tile rather than let a higher ranked unit face peril). At level 3 or so, A unit with Corporal can get Seargent, which allows it to command a unit (I think it's just one) that has Corporal but not Sergeant promotions. Sergeants can also take any of the promotions available to GCs. At level 6 or so a unit with Sergeant can get Lieutenant which allows it to command one more unit, and any of those units can be Sergeants, and any units it commands (and any they command) get a small strength bonus (for FfH-note that most bonuses in FfH are double what they are in BTS). And so on. I think their are additional ranks available at levels 10 (Captain), 15(Corporal), and 20(General) which expand the unit's command capacity (how many units it commands), command range, and strength bonuses to all the units below it (and similarly any unit can command others with a rank promotion, but less than the unit itself). In it's current implementation, Xienwolf admits its overpowered (for one thing all of those XP bonuses stack by addition, so a Seargent is getting a 10% or 20% boost to XP earned through his follower(s), as he could be picking up command slot promos for more followers and his Lieutenant might have 2 to 5 Sergeants, so you're potentially talking about a +150% bonus that gets downright silly if you get a General with a full army), but thinks in the duration of a normal game of FF, you'd never have all the units you'd need to fill up the full army beneath your level 20 uber-commander (I think it could be solved by applying the bonus once at each rank as XP filters up through the chain of command). On the other hand the ranges are such that you'd be able to at most attack two cities at a time, you'd just really beat the snot out of the defenders. In AND, with the Surround and Destroy option on, multiple stacks of doom that the chain of command encourages, would be useful in a confined area, so it would have better application here. In AND/RoM Command ranges could/should be extended by technology (if I recall correctly General Franks led the initial 2003 Iraq campaign out of a base in Tampa, Florida). Extreme care would need to be taken with the values of command promotions since a RoM/AND game could well see armies sufficienlty large to maximize the available benefits. You'd probably want to make all the commander style promotions trickle through the ranks (in the CoC module the Bannor promotions give a different promotion to each of the followers, and that secondary promotion gives a copy of itself to its unit's followers, but the original Commander promos didn't get updated which makes most of them useless to any unit ranked above Sergeant).

So the basic idea is that you have units that are weaker than they'd otherwise be (because a level 3 Seargent has no other promos unless he got them for free and is no match for a contemporary with a couple Combat promotions), but once you got your army underway, your Corporals ultimately under a Lieutenant have half the improvement Combat 1 would given them (from his Lieutenant promo), but may be about equal to their contemporaries if either their Seargent or Lieutenant picked up any Combat-like promos (the Lieutenant is worthless in a fight with his contemporaries at this point because the Combat-like promo's do nothing for him, but he should have 2 to 4 Corporals in his tile that have to be destroyed before he can be directly attacked. If you can get a Captain with decent bonuses for his followers and extended capacity and range, then you really get to go to town. His Corporals will effectively have a free +10% or 20%, and if your promoting some units normally (not up the chain of command), look out! In RifE/FF there are some other things going on to counter this, mainly that each Civ has something they do that seems ridiculously strong until you campare it to what other civs are doing (for example the Calabim have Vampire units that get to eat city population for otherwise free xp at a rate roughly equal to the size of the city). A general counter is the Assassin unit that has an increased chance (may be automatic, I don't know how the tile defense probabilities work out) of attacking weaker units on a tile. Which would normally be a mage, but GC would get a strong preference, as would other units with Commander promos.

Odalrik also has a module that lets any unit become gain command capacity, but doesn't include the chain aspect. There was an ongoing discussion about whether units represented individuals (which makes some sense in FfH) or groups of 100s or 1000s of men (the position Valkrionn, the lead guy on RifE, takes) and thus whether it makes sense to have units commanding other units or single dudes (the GC) wandering around by their lonesomes. Also, I can't confirm whether the AI gets how to use Bannor CoC or whether it understands to keep commanders within range of their followers (though I have seen commander follower combos used by the AI), so I don't know how much touch up work is necessary for that mod, were you to go that route.


As to XP from training buildings, just so were all on the same page, do you mean 'Some buildings that give some XP to units as the units are made will instead give fractional XP over time up to some maximum value (probably similar to the fixed amount now), so no Combat 4 horsemen out of the gate"? If so there are a couple of things you need to be aware of.
Spoiler :
The flat XP mod causes training buildings to give a promotion to specificn unit classes that are in the city, which if that unit's total XP is below a certain amount, gives some XP. It's not by level, since level doesn't increase until you take a promotion, so you could 'forget' to promote a unit and just keep raking in the XP forever. A unit with multiple such training promotions currently (and this is considered a bug, but they just ran with it) gets the XP from all if the units' current XP is less than the total of the limits of the promotions. So the design idea (and this is just an example, it varies by unit class)is basically, the earliest building (in FfH nothing goes obsolete) has a limit of 5XP (and takes a while to get there) which normally gets you to level 3. The next building has a limit of 5XP (the total 10 gets you level 4, and you reach level 3 quicker). The next building has a limit of 7XP (17 gets you to level 5) [It should be noted that this is the building GC can create in a city-it can also be built by Organized leaders after a certain tech].

RoM has too many buildings handing out some XP to plan that way, but you could break down the contributions among different buildings (or not really worry about matching specific levels with specific buildings at all). The problem that will creat is similar to the one I run into with a Charismatic leader. Without that trait, in RifE, most units level up with the last bit of XP they can earn with training, which wakes them up if I've sentried them in a city. With the trait, they get levels sooner, but it's at least somewhat desirable to go ahead and get the free XP when nothing else is going on. It's not desirable to go back and check on them. So I would suggest a button like Sentry that will instead wake a unit up if it's not going to receive training XP this turn.

It's probably noteworthy that in FfH/RifE the tech tree is much shorter and values all around remain smaller. Specifically, the training buildings are generally expensive enough that you have to specialize cities by unit type for most of the game. This effect would not be as sustained in RoM/AND since our production values increase quite reliably over time.

Some units, like Heroes and Workers get such a promotion just for being alive, that ultimately gives them up to 100 free XP (at 1XP per turn) (mages and religious units get even more massive XP depending on how you play, though mages tend to get more varied rather than stronger with more levels). Which is actually excessive for Workers because they run out of promotions. And I'm not asking for Heroes (or Mages). Just pointing out that these promotions don't have to be tied to buildings. So they could (but aren't currently in RifE) also be applied for the XP from Civics, Wonders or other situations (dare I suggest events?).

One other wrinkle that caused some consternation. These per turn XP values are all gamespeed sensitive. With fractional XP going to .01, and the slower gamespeeds dividing by 2 and 3, any of these promotions had to give .06 per turn at standard speed if noone was to get shorted due to truncation (that division and truncation occurs before the XP values are added to the unit-they are not added first-so that was a pretty significant concern). They had to give at least .03 to be relevant on all gamespeeds. FfH has no Snail setting, so there's some modification that would need to be done to account for it.

One final thing related to frational XP and RifE. There's a mechanic for units that conduct ranged attacks like archers or catapult bombards to gain XP for damage they do that necessarily does not destroy a target (I've been killing things with archer bombard in my latest AND game btw-don't know if that's intentional) but the way they deal with bombardment and that XP are both more complicated then I can easily explain. RifE currently also gives XP to units when one runs away in combat which was a change-I don't know if you already do something similar. Lastly, Barbarians are always worth some XP, but they remain a threat longer (RifE should be famous for it animals by now) and there's a mechanism that diminishes their value for units past the hero threshold of 100XP.
 
This is right below "It's the Economy, Stupid!" (KonradCabrel's Ideas) on my 1.70 list.

When I wrote that post, I almost named it the exact same way!:lol:

But "Economics Modcomp" seemed more respectable. Economists are arrogant people, don't you know?
 
@Cyrusfan: OVERACHIEVER! seriously are you trying to make us look bad? J/K
 
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