Robert FIN
Emperor
Are you sure that he has HBR? Otherwise no Elephant avaible.
New Game- random leader:Roosevelt
- Thread starter joe6778
- Start date
Are you sure that he has HBR? Otherwise no Elephant avaible.
UnforcedError
Settler
Got to go to work so I won't be able to check every detail until tonight. I don't understand, however: did you replay the game from an earlier version, Joe?
Anyway, let's take this game for now. There are some mistakes which should be corrected asap:
Trade with Bismarck for ivory as I suggested. Give him pig + stone. That's +1 happy in all of your cities and you need that instantly.
kwaDukuza should have whipped that workboat a while ago. Switch to workboat now and whip next turn. Growing a city on two grass forest tiles isn't optimal.
Move the warrior between Hamburg and Bulawayo inside Bulawayo and get that axe out to join the stack.
uMgungundlovu is your Academy city. It should not stagnate at size 3 on a settler, it should have stagnated at size 5 on a settler, working the gold and all cottages, adding scientists later. With the ivory trade going you will be able to get it to size 4 for now (borrow the pig from the cap). Let's grow that city on a unit (a chariot, probably). (Not working the gold and 1 cottage for 1T on 100% is -18
per turn in this city. That's a big waste, and now we won't be concentrating on research for a while.)
Nodwengu didn't necessarily need to get roaded up immediately as you get trade routes in the city from Sailing. No biggie though, let's improve the corn for now. Whip a monument at size 2. This is a great food city, let's start using it.
Tech path: let's switch to 0% research for now. CoL won't help us much in this situation, this is not a CS game (you don't have a Bur cap). What we need badly is Monarchy. However, neither Meditation nor Polytheism are available for trade yet. We can as well get CoL slowly. 0% is important however. War is costly.
Whip the catapult in Ulundi, use the rice and the cows to grow back. Never prioritize a 4H tile to a 1F5H tile (the iron). That just doesn't make sense.
As soon as we have the first four catapults assembled with the axes we can declare on Kublai. Let's use our scouting warrior to locate his fourth city until then. Use workers to chop out the next catapult specifically. Don't chop jungle, that's a waste of time.
Let's check for a possible Poly or Med trade every turn. If Pacal gets ~40-50 gold let's trade him Sailing.
Anyway, let's take this game for now. There are some mistakes which should be corrected asap:
Trade with Bismarck for ivory as I suggested. Give him pig + stone. That's +1 happy in all of your cities and you need that instantly.
kwaDukuza should have whipped that workboat a while ago. Switch to workboat now and whip next turn. Growing a city on two grass forest tiles isn't optimal.
Move the warrior between Hamburg and Bulawayo inside Bulawayo and get that axe out to join the stack.
uMgungundlovu is your Academy city. It should not stagnate at size 3 on a settler, it should have stagnated at size 5 on a settler, working the gold and all cottages, adding scientists later. With the ivory trade going you will be able to get it to size 4 for now (borrow the pig from the cap). Let's grow that city on a unit (a chariot, probably). (Not working the gold and 1 cottage for 1T on 100% is -18
per turn in this city. That's a big waste, and now we won't be concentrating on research for a while.)Nodwengu didn't necessarily need to get roaded up immediately as you get trade routes in the city from Sailing. No biggie though, let's improve the corn for now. Whip a monument at size 2. This is a great food city, let's start using it.
Tech path: let's switch to 0% research for now. CoL won't help us much in this situation, this is not a CS game (you don't have a Bur cap). What we need badly is Monarchy. However, neither Meditation nor Polytheism are available for trade yet. We can as well get CoL slowly. 0% is important however. War is costly.
Whip the catapult in Ulundi, use the rice and the cows to grow back. Never prioritize a 4H tile to a 1F5H tile (the iron). That just doesn't make sense.
As soon as we have the first four catapults assembled with the axes we can declare on Kublai. Let's use our scouting warrior to locate his fourth city until then. Use workers to chop out the next catapult specifically. Don't chop jungle, that's a waste of time.
Let's check for a possible Poly or Med trade every turn. If Pacal gets ~40-50 gold let's trade him Sailing.
Htadus
A and L's dad
You will not find any video's going to space since it takes a while to achieve. But if you want check out this save I recently posted that is very close to finishing.
The key to a fast space game is to have about 20-25 good cities by 1000AD and then most become wealth builders and set up your tech centers to maximize science. Run several golden ages. Also Build IW in a great city that can get you about 300-450 hammers per turn.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12716625&postcount=47
UnforcedError
Settler
Thanks for the link, Htadus 
Got to go to work so I won't be able to check every detail until tonight. I don't understand, however: did you replay the game from an earlier version, Joe?
Anyway, let's take this game for now. There are some mistakes which should be corrected asap:
Trade with Bismarck for ivory as I suggested. Give him pig + stone. That's +1 happy in all of your cities and you need that instantly.
kwaDukuza should have whipped that workboat a while ago. Switch to workboat now and whip next turn. Growing a city on two grass forest tiles isn't optimal.
Move the warrior between Hamburg and Bulawayo inside Bulawayo and get that axe out to join the stack.
uMgungundlovu is your Academy city. It should not stagnate at size 3 on a settler, it should have stagnated at size 5 on a settler, working the gold and all cottages, adding scientists later. With the ivory trade going you will be able to get it to size 4 for now (borrow the pig from the cap). Let's grow that city on a unit (a chariot, probably). (Not working the gold and 1 cottage for 1T on 100% is -18
Nodwengu didn't necessarily need to get roaded up immediately as you get trade routes in the city from Sailing. No biggie though, let's improve the corn for now. Whip a monument at size 2. This is a great food city, let's start using it.
Tech path: let's switch to 0% research for now. CoL won't help us much in this situation, this is not a CS game (you don't have a Bur cap). What we need badly is Monarchy. However, neither Meditation nor Polytheism are available for trade yet. We can as well get CoL slowly. 0% is important however. War is costly.
Whip the catapult in Ulundi, use the rice and the cows to grow back. Never prioritize a 4H tile to a 1F5H tile (the iron). That just doesn't make sense.
As soon as we have the first four catapults assembled with the axes we can declare on Kublai. Let's use our scouting warrior to locate his fourth city until then. Use workers to chop out the next catapult specifically. Don't chop jungle, that's a waste of time.
Let's check for a possible Poly or Med trade every turn. If Pacal gets ~40-50 gold let's trade him Sailing.
I'm confused as to which game save I should have gone back to: 650BC or 425BC. So many saved games and restarts that I'm getting a little mixed up. Anyway, Bismarck won't trade ivory with me
Things I still don't get:
*What's wrong with growing a city on two grass forest tiles?
*I thought you told me to "stagnate on a settler" in Umma. See your 11:04pm post, 6th paragraph.
*What's a "CS game" and "Bur cap" and why don't I have it?
*What's wrong with chopping jungle?
Grassland forests are unimproved tiles - the yield that they offer is simply not very impressive. Remember that each citizen eats 2 
, so all you're gaining by working them is 1 
each. kwaDukuza should have whipped/chopped out a Workboat ASAP instead of the Library - remember, is king.
Stagnating on a Settler in Umma is fine, but do it at the happy cap so you work more tiles. Right now Umma can't grow and it's missing out on working improved tiles.
CS refers to Civil Service, a technology that unlocks the Bureaucracy civic. It's usually a very strong civic to aim for quite early in the game because the 50%
bonus that it gives is very strong, but here you don't really have a strong commerce city yet, so it's not that crucial to aim for right away.
Chopping jungle, unlike forests, gives no production, so it's useless unless you a) need to work the tile in question (the jungle needs to be cleared in order to build any improvement, save roads) or b) the city with jungle in its BFC is facing health issues.
, so all you're gaining by working them is 1 each. kwaDukuza should have whipped/chopped out a Workboat ASAP instead of the Library - remember, is king.Stagnating on a Settler in Umma is fine, but do it at the happy cap so you work more tiles. Right now Umma can't grow and it's missing out on working improved tiles.
CS refers to Civil Service, a technology that unlocks the Bureaucracy civic. It's usually a very strong civic to aim for quite early in the game because the 50%
bonus that it gives is very strong, but here you don't really have a strong commerce city yet, so it's not that crucial to aim for right away.Chopping jungle, unlike forests, gives no production, so it's useless unless you a) need to work the tile in question (the jungle needs to be cleared in order to build any improvement, save roads) or b) the city with jungle in its BFC is facing health issues.
UnforcedError
Settler
^^Perfect answers there from Nials. 
Joe, I loaded up your save and tested it. Bismarck will definitely trade ivory for pig and stone this turn. It's OK to stay with this save I guess. I was just sure you reloaded a previous one because some roads and improvements were suddenly not there in the game.
Joe, I loaded up your save and tested it. Bismarck will definitely trade ivory for pig and stone this turn. It's OK to stay with this save I guess. I was just sure you reloaded a previous one because some roads and improvements were suddenly not there in the game.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Thanks for the link, Htadus
You are welcome..
CS refers to Civil Service, a technology that unlocks the Bureaucracy civic. It's usually a very strong civic to aim for quite early in the game because the 50%
The main reason for going for CS is not Buro, instead the ability to chain farm tiles. After all food is king and farms give you more food. Buro is great for both hammers and commerce, so the capital need not be a commerce center but a monster production city. So unless you are doing a Eng bulb gambit, CS should be a priority.
UnforcedError
Settler
^^Bur is also a very expensive civic to run. Here on Noble this is not something Joe should worry about too much, but if he starts playing on the higher difficulty levels this would be something to watch out for. A non-commerce capital needs a heck of production to make Bur worthwhile.
Chain irrigation is very important but it's also very much map dependent. If you can do without chain irrigation and if you don't plan to run Bureaucracy, and if you don't want a fast Education for Oxford there is no real reason to rush CS. I think we will rather get Monarchy and Feudalism and maybe Eng later and kill the map. Joe says he needs to get a feel for war games.
Chain irrigation is very important but it's also very much map dependent. If you can do without chain irrigation and if you don't plan to run Bureaucracy, and if you don't want a fast Education for Oxford there is no real reason to rush CS. I think we will rather get Monarchy and Feudalism and maybe Eng later and kill the map. Joe says he needs to get a feel for war games.
Another thing that I'm perplexed by is: how early do you plan which victory to aim for?
I'm winning on Noble more consistently now, but I need an overall strategy to work toward in my games. So far I'm getting very precise tactical guidance, and I'm extremely grateful, but I'm not sure what type of victory they're all working toward achieving.
For instance, in this game, after I take out KK, then what?
Am I jumping the gun?
If expert players are winning victories in the 1800s, I'm curious as to how they achieve that.
I'm winning on Noble more consistently now, but I need an overall strategy to work toward in my games. So far I'm getting very precise tactical guidance, and I'm extremely grateful, but I'm not sure what type of victory they're all working toward achieving.
For instance, in this game, after I take out KK, then what?
Am I jumping the gun?
If expert players are winning victories in the 1800s, I'm curious as to how they achieve that.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Actually they should be winning way before that for most VC.
UnforcedError
Settler
Joe, I had domination or conquest in mind, since you said you wanted to learn how to war. We can get Kublai and then Bismarck (as soon as you have Currency, some units to fight with and more productive cities than the opposition, war is always trivial). Then we shall see if we need to tech on. We will need Feudalism for a fast conquest game and Monarchy to grow the cities a bit unless Bismarck builds the Pyramids for us. Bismarck's ivory and HBR from Kublai should get us though most of the map.
As Htadus said, all VCs except probably space are possible long before 1800 AD even on a non-Pangea type map.
And yes, it is your game. Which VC do you want to achieve and how do you think you should go about it?
As Htadus said, all VCs except probably space are possible long before 1800 AD even on a non-Pangea type map.
And yes, it is your game. Which VC do you want to achieve and how do you think you should go about it?
Yep... 1800 is the slowest that is even remotely competitive for space race (I personally have some pre-1700 space wins, and I am far from a top player), and any other victory comes much sooner...
Having said that, understand that what is happening in this tread is NOT aimed at getting you the fastest victory possible... If it was, then indeed we would have pushed you into an ultra early pyramid, or a Oracle for Civil-service gambit, or and ultra early rush of your neighbors, or various other specialized strategies that could have been made to work on this map... But you should NOT be worrying about that right now.
Step 1... Learn to win using sound fundamentals.
Step 2... Once you are comfortable with a level, start pusing for an earlier victory.
Pushing for the earlierst possible victory means the following:
-Deciding very early on the victory type, and focussing on it at a neglect of all other things.
-Often, HELPING the AI (for example, giving it free tech, just to it researches faster, in order to have techs to trade you in the future.)
-Manipulating the AI with diplomaty (For example, in some early culture games, your total army for the entire game is 9 warriors (one for each city)
-Taking risks... This is somehow inherent... If you start gifting too many techs to the AI, and lose controle of the situation, you can get beaten to the ship... If you have 9 warriors in 600 AD, and mess up a diplomatic move and are declared on, you die, etc...
So, while early victories are certainly something to strive for, a game aimed at an ultra-early victory is not the best teaching tool for someone trying to aquire the fundamentals.
What you are being guided to so far is a somewhat midle-of-the-road approach which will be a good (but not great) foundation to ANY victory type.... By about 0AD, you are going to have a solid empire with more than your fair share of land, and a develloped infrastructure. At that stage, you will be able to take the game in any direction you want (Military conquest, space, culture, whatever), and be in a position to win.
Having said that, now is certainly the time you should start discussing and planning your long term strategy (i.e. how to win), but as Htadus indicated, probably just after your first war will be the right time to make the final decision on victory condition in this particular game.
Having said that, understand that what is happening in this tread is NOT aimed at getting you the fastest victory possible... If it was, then indeed we would have pushed you into an ultra early pyramid, or a Oracle for Civil-service gambit, or and ultra early rush of your neighbors, or various other specialized strategies that could have been made to work on this map... But you should NOT be worrying about that right now.
Step 1... Learn to win using sound fundamentals.
Step 2... Once you are comfortable with a level, start pusing for an earlier victory.
Pushing for the earlierst possible victory means the following:
-Deciding very early on the victory type, and focussing on it at a neglect of all other things.
-Often, HELPING the AI (for example, giving it free tech, just to it researches faster, in order to have techs to trade you in the future.)
-Manipulating the AI with diplomaty (For example, in some early culture games, your total army for the entire game is 9 warriors (one for each city)
-Taking risks... This is somehow inherent... If you start gifting too many techs to the AI, and lose controle of the situation, you can get beaten to the ship... If you have 9 warriors in 600 AD, and mess up a diplomatic move and are declared on, you die, etc...
So, while early victories are certainly something to strive for, a game aimed at an ultra-early victory is not the best teaching tool for someone trying to aquire the fundamentals.
What you are being guided to so far is a somewhat midle-of-the-road approach which will be a good (but not great) foundation to ANY victory type.... By about 0AD, you are going to have a solid empire with more than your fair share of land, and a develloped infrastructure. At that stage, you will be able to take the game in any direction you want (Military conquest, space, culture, whatever), and be in a position to win.
Having said that, now is certainly the time you should start discussing and planning your long term strategy (i.e. how to win), but as Htadus indicated, probably just after your first war will be the right time to make the final decision on victory condition in this particular game.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2013
- Messages
- 14,036
You can get Ivory for Pigs + Rice for example 
That's very important, you have so much health currently but somehow think that would be not a good trade for you.
It totally does not matter what these AIs have, only look for your gains.
You want Ivory for happy (and maybe Jumbos, but i'm not getting involved in game plans..), give him anything you can spare.
In many many games here posted by players who are learning, resource trades are handled badly..and your example shows you think too much or in wrong directions with them.
That's very important, you have so much health currently but somehow think that would be not a good trade for you.
It totally does not matter what these AIs have, only look for your gains.
You want Ivory for happy (and maybe Jumbos, but i'm not getting involved in game plans..), give him anything you can spare.
In many many games here posted by players who are learning, resource trades are handled badly..and your example shows you think too much or in wrong directions with them.
I cant open the save here (wrong computer), but given what UE and Fippy said above (that he definily will), I think I should follow up on this...
What exactly do you mean he will not?
-When you open up the trade dialog with him, and scroll down on his side to see the word ivory, is it red or white??
-If red, what explanation pops up when you over over the word with the mouse?
-If white, then click on it to put it on his side of the table, then click on "What would you need for this", or "What would it take to make this work", or similar; I forget the exact wording... What does he ask for?
UnforcedError
Settler
I'm at work now so I can't open the save atm. Will check it later tonight to see how to proceed
Joe, I think the main problem with you is that you simply keep playing on instead of asking, which is something you should have done on T90 when ivory became available for trade (I simply assumed you forgot). There are apparently many things that are obvious for us (like using the game interface), so we don't post any details about it unless specifically asked for. I will try to include more detailed explanations on the interface in the future, however you should really post something like "How do I trade for ivory?" in these situations. We're trying to teach you how to play the game after all.
@Jastrow: Bismarck wants copper of course. But he will accept the trade for any two resources also.
Joe, I think the main problem with you is that you simply keep playing on instead of asking, which is something you should have done on T90 when ivory became available for trade (I simply assumed you forgot). There are apparently many things that are obvious for us (like using the game interface), so we don't post any details about it unless specifically asked for. I will try to include more detailed explanations on the interface in the future, however you should really post something like "How do I trade for ivory?" in these situations. We're trying to teach you how to play the game after all.
@Jastrow: Bismarck wants copper of course. But he will accept the trade for any two resources also.
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