New Game Speeds

[Taxman66]

Maybe the baseline should be what the AI gets to that Tech.
Certainly a lot easier to run many multiple test cases with auto turns.
Also good to compare various traits effects as well.

 

[tmv]

Just sayin', I think you have a misprint.

Snail at 155 turns you would be @36980BC.

Epic at 155 turns = 15900BC
JosEPh

You are right, I must have misread.

But I think there is more going on than these traits (and Scientific with Focused Traits means upgrading anywhere, which is very nice. With the other trait set you'd have to select a trait with far less benefits - I don't remember which one).

I have not seen many AI Great Hunters. Perhaps they are not given a high enough priority when the CM options are on. This makes a major difference. Without Great Hunters, you cannot get that far away from your capital, because those carnivores destroy your entire army. My first two units were slaughtered, I was without an army for a while (other than the Tribal Guardian), then I didn't build regular fighters for a while, only hunters, I got 4 Great Hunters IIRC, and I didn't settle one of them. By now they defeat and subdue everything, and if I had caves in the capital's vicinity I would be even more ahead (cave painting). I play with 7 AIs in a huge world, and there should be at least one of them with caves.

The only thing I don't like about C2C_Planet_Generator is that stones are rare, rarer than gems.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@tmv,
With 7 AI do you have tech Diffusion On or Off?

I have been doing most of my testing with it Off. Having it On speeds up the race to Sed Life pretty significantly, if you have early neighbors. I'm almost of the belief that TD is too strong in it's current rate.

@Taxman,
Autorun should give quicker results. I just wanted personal play for the early stages of these GS changes. And unfortunately for the past 2 weeks the wife and I have been battling some health bugs. So my personal testing has slowed way down. I'm doing much better now, but the wife is on her 2nd set of antibiotics.

JosEPh

 

[Usul13]

SVN 9265, Monarch difficulty, Snail speed, leader is Isabella of Spain (Spiritual, Seafaring, Fanatical), large PerfectMongoose map with medium sea level

I reached Sedentary Lifestyle in turn 588/5060BC. Ragnar of the Vikings was the first to discover Sedentary in 9176BC.

My leader's fanatical trait gives -10% research and another -10% research in the capital. It's a big disadvantage. Around 18000 BC my leader developed a new trait. I had a choice between giving her the Scientific trait or taking from her the Fanatical trait. Because I started on a huge continent and I had quite a lot of hunting parties (a tracker and a spiked clubman or a wooden spearman as military escort) far from my territory I chose the Scientific trait. I neded the ability to upgrade units outside my borders. So the -10% research in my capital still affected my research.

Hunting helped some, but I didn't have caves near my capital. I started hunting around 35000 BC. I reached the 5 unit cap of trackers around 25000 BC. At this point I had 2 master hunter too.

I started near the polar cap in an arid climate. My capital had relatively good plots around it but the peninsula where I started was quite small and it connected to the continent with desert and taiga plots, so it was difficult to move my hunters to the mainland. Also there were a lot of desert territories on the continent, so the hunting grounds were limited. And the other civilizations hunted a lot too.

Tech diffusion was on and it almost always gave me extra research points. I was light years behind the Viking civilization all the time.

When I reach Tribalism I like to expand quite aggressively. Usually the new cities help boosting my research quite early but this time they developed very slowly, because the lands near my capital were poor. It was a bigger burden to my treasury than usually.

When I reach Tribalism I usually have 2000-3000 gold and the expansion turns my balance into huge negative. At the point when my money runs out I have 6-8 new cities. I start to build Lesser Wealth in one or two of my first new cities and it helps me while I stabilize my balance. And it don't slows down my expansion or my research.

In this game when I almost run out of money I had 6 cities including the capital. And I didn't research the Barter tech yet, so I had to build Meager Wealth in five cities including my capital. I also had to set my research percentage to 0 for 3 turns while I researched Barter. After that I had to build Lesser Wealth in 3 of my new cities to have a positive balance. My research was 100% all the time except these 3 turns.

When I reached Sedentary I had 9 cities, 435 gold in my treasury with -2 gold / turn balance. In 2 of my cities I had to build Lesser Wealth for this.

It was an unusually difficult start for me but it was fun.

I have not seen many AI Great Hunters. Perhaps they are not given a high enough priority when the CM options are on. This makes a major difference. Without Great Hunters, you cannot get that far away from your capital, because those carnivores destroy your entire army. My first two units were slaughtered, I was without an army for a while (other than the Tribal Guardian), then I didn't build regular fighters for a while, only hunters, I got 4 Great Hunters IIRC, and I didn't settle one of them. By now they defeat and subdue everything, and if I had caves in the capital's vicinity I would be even more ahead (cave painting). I play with 7 AIs in a huge world, and there should be at least one of them with caves.

I usually escort my early hunter units with military units. It gives them a huge chance to survive. Of course they can't do anything about Sabretooths. Also with hide and seek some hiding animals can kill my hunters even though a strong unit escorts them. So it depends on luck a lot.

About the caves: I played not too long ago on a huge map with 12 or 13 AI-s. My capital didn't have caves. After I researched Tribalism and founded my fourth city near some caves I was surprised because all of the cave great wonders was available. None of the other 12 or 13 civs had caves near their capital either.

 

[tmv]

@tmv,
With 7 AI do you have tech Diffusion On or Off?
JosEPh

Off. I don't like tech diffusion - it would be better if it depended on the ratio.

@Usul13: Regular hunters cannot destroy Sabretooths (with CM), mil units cannot destroy Sabretooths. Pretty much the only prehistoric units that can do something about these beasts are the Great Hunters.

 

[Usul13]

@Usul13: Regular hunters cannot destroy Sabretooths (with CM), mil units cannot destroy Sabretooths. Pretty much the only prehistoric units that can do something about these beasts are the Great Hunters.

This is true in one on one situations. There are rare occasions when the Sabretooth is visible and weakened of a previous fight. Then regular units or hunters have some chance.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Great report Usul13! At turn 525 the number of years per turn drops to 13 1/3 from 84. For Snail the target date for Sed life is 5900BC. So your 588 turns and Date tells me you had to use 63 turns beyond this target date and turn count to reach Sed Life.

Now comes the next phase for your game (if you chose to continue playing it), what date and turn will you achieve Classical Lifestyle to enter the Classical Era? You have 387 turns left that will use the this current time span for each turn. Can you reach it in that time or will you still be some turns behind the pace set for this GS. Really interested in this goal as an indicator of the rest of the games flow on this GS.

JosEPh

 

[Usul13]

Great report Usul13! At turn 525 the number of years per turn drops to 13 1/3 from 84. For Snail the target date for Sed life is 5900BC. So your 588 turns and Date tells me you had to use 63 turns beyond this target date and turn count to reach Sed Life.

Now comes the next phase for your game (if you chose to continue playing it), what date and turn will you achieve Classical Lifestyle to enter the Classical Era? You have 387 turns left that will use the this current time span for each turn. Can you reach it in that time or will you still be some turns behind the pace set for this GS. Really interested in this goal as an indicator of the rest of the games flow on this GS.

JosEPh

I can test it for you but it will take some time. I will get there at the weekend or early next week probably.

My guess is that my research will accelerate somewhat so there is a chance to reach that goal. Although there will be a minor war against one of the weakest civs because they are in my way. It is also possible that the Vikings will attack me. In this case I will be in trouble because they are ahead me a lot and they are stronger too. It can be interesting.

By the way I forgot to mention earlier that I researched all prehistoric techs before Sedentary lifestyle. I could have reach it earlier if I bypass some techs. But this way the test is more accurate.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Off. I don't like tech diffusion - it would be better if it depended on the ratio.

<snip>

Since we got it from AND2 I'm not sure how hard it would be to adapt to . And of course the subject would have to have discussion since only 1 or 2 of the Modders could do anything with it. And T-brd is really tied up with some major issues.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm tied up but I do like that idea. Makes sense. Will be a WHILE before it would be worth addressing though as it's a little miscellaneous as far as mod 'needs' go.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm tied up but I do like that idea. Makes sense. Will be a WHILE before it would be worth addressing though as it's a little miscellaneous as far as mod 'needs' go.

Agree. You have much bigger issues to deal with in the time being.

JosEPh

 

[tmv]

There is absolutely no hurry. I have no problems with this. I only have a problem with Tech Diffusion active without some means to control it. But with TD deactivated there is no problem.

 

[SirJohnEh]

Snail speed test at SVN 9265: Monarch difficulty, Perfect Mongoose standard map size with Old World start, default 7 civilizations and medium sea level. No leader traits, Tech diffusion off, Tech Brokering off.

Reached Sedentary Lifestyle first, at turn 476 (10016 BC). Could have reached about turn 460 by a quick rush, but instead grabbed some optional technologies (mainly to get Tengriism first because I had horses). After getting Sedentary, went back for a few other key technologies (sailing, slash and burn, etc). By turn 501, 2 AIs had reached Sedentary Lifestyle (and were 1 to 2 technologies past), and other 4 AIs were only a couple of technologies short.

Reached Classical Lifestyle second, at turn 799 (2247 BC). Rushed the last 20 turns, after checking Worldbuilder and finding one AI civilization (Darius) was already at least 3 technologies past Classical Lifestyle. I think Darius reached Classical Lifestyle about Turn 757, based on subtracting the estimated 42 turns I would need to reach the 6 Classical Age technologies Darius already had at Turn 799. All other civilizations were at least 5 technologies away from achieving Classical Lifestyle.

Starting location (and luck) above average at the start (productive land with food and gold resources, 2 technologies from goody huts and 2 from islands, good locations for first 3 cities). However, things went downhill after reaching Sedentary lifestyle. I did get 3 more technologies from islands, 2 from spy steals, 1 from building a Wonder, traded for a couple more, and boosted by 2 Great Ages. However, after Sedentary I was trapped on a peninsula by the 2 largest and strongest AIs (with hindsight I should have tried to expand before they did). Only room for 3 more decent-location cities, no other land nearby, and no metals or stone for advanced builds. Did not get access to copper or stone until founding a city on a small far-way island in 2407 BC.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Another Good report SirJohnEh!

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

In conjunction with the GS changes I have found that the xml file CIV4CultureLevelInfos.xml is in need of some scaling that the New GS has introduced. I have spoken with T-brd about some of the things found and will soon be adding to the SVN those changes needed to make the Culture Levels be better aligned with the GS.

I will also be making a small change to the 2nd Culture Level Poor as in it's current state is basically a copy of None with the difference being that it just allows 2 more WW and NW than None. The changes I will be making will not affect the # of WW or NW allowed. But will add a actual Culture Level (integer value) for each GS as all the other Culture Levels do. Currently Poor is set to 0 for all GS the same as None, what you start the game with on turn 0.

One ramification from these new Non 0 levels (Normal GS starts at 10 and all the other GS are scaled accordingly) is that when you found a new city (with the Game Set Up Options Minimum City Borders turned Off, ie not used) your city only has the 1 Main City tile to start with. In my test games using this New Poor Culture threshold I have found that this is a very good and exciting change. It makes getting that 1st Culture giving building up and running a bit more important. Yes your city will expand to the Main 9 tiles with in a very reasonable time even with out that 1st Culture bldg. But..., through out the game every new city must go thru this level up. Meaning that staking out your territory by Culture is not as fast as it is now. You have a few turns anticipation to deal with, especially as your borders with neighbors gets more defined.

Overall this simple low level change adds to gameplay excitement.

A bit more testing with different Game setup Options and I will be adding this to the SVN.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Interesting to start with only the city. Fascinating indeed.

I presume it would only take about 10 rounds at most for the capital to grow out to at least the first rung?

 

[Taxman66]

I disagree... At least at the (tech) point where you can build forts that grab 9 tiles, cities should get them as well. As you could(should) then use workers to build a fort next/in front of where you plan to plop your city to grab said hexes. You're just adding more micro management.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Interesting to start with only the city. Fascinating indeed.

I presume it would only take about 10 rounds at most for the capital to grow out to at least the first rung?

Approximately Yes. Each GS is a bit longer (1 or 2 turns) than it's predecessor. And every city placed afterward has the same process. But it gets faster as your culture bldg choices grow.

@Taxman,

I disagree... At least at the (tech) point where you can build forts that grab 9 tiles, cities should get them as well. As you could(should) then use workers to build a fort next/in front of where you plan to plop your city to grab said hexes. You're just adding more micro management.

If you use the Minimum City Border Option this does not happen and will not be a concern.

And If you are seeing forts give 9 tiles, It would have to be with the Minimum City Option On as well (and that is really a bug imho with that Option we ported in from AND2). Cause you don't get 9 tile forts with MBC turned Off. And I stated all this above in the initial post.

No micro management involved at all. But placing a fort before your new city next to where your Main city tile will be can be advantageous. A bit more strategy at times in certain situations. But not all the time.

JosEPh

 

[Taxman66]

If you use the Minimum City Border Option this does not happen and will not be a concern.

Yes, but then if I read that option correctly, you can never take those away from another player via culture influence.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes, but then if I read that option correctly, you can never take those away from another player via culture influence.

True. But surely that's not too big a deal if you have an aversion enough to the way cities begin. For later cities after the first, which doesn't suffer for long, just send an entertainer to pop the first rung once the city is founded.

Unfortunately, this actually should then be something that the AI should be programmed to do with them. hmm... Otherwise the player gets a bit of an unfair advantage knowing the trick.