NEW Handicap's

How much do you think are Buildings to fast to Build?

I don't think we should make them much slower because as a player you should be able to keep up building them while new Techs enable other buildings.

My first city is building all the buildings with time to spare and wonders are way to fast.

At a guess I would say they are about 10-20% to fast.

The only problem is that the AI seems worse off at this speed. They seem to make 4-5 times too many units to early.
 
In the new speed changes its at least better in that I can build buildings and/or units before the next tech is is researched. This is much better and how it should be.

I am not sure if I agree with DH if they are too fast. I have not run out of buildings to make in even my Capital city. However its getting closer and closer each turn. Note I am in the Ancient Era now. So buildings are more spread out across the many techs on what you can build. Also not every tech unlocks a building I can make (mostly lacking access to a resource).

I did run into :mad: for once when expanding too fast. So I was forced to build more :) buildings that I normally do. Or I should say build them earlier than I normally do.

I am at around 11 cities and 80% research rate. This seems reasonable for the civic I am at and where I am at in the tree.
 
Why is the "Eons" game-speed named in the plural? 'Aeon', in the singular, already means an unspecified very long period of time, and none of the other game speeds use plural nouns.
 
My first city is building all the buildings with time to spare and wonders are way to fast.

At a guess I would say they are about 10-20% to fast.

The only problem is that the AI seems worse off at this speed. They seem to make 4-5 times too many units to early.


From what i saw the AI should be better. They expand earlier and that could be the reason why they have more units around.
 
I have just reached the Classical period and contrary to expectations I am getting techs faster on the slow research rate than I was on the fast research rate. As far as I can see this is because I have built all the buildings in my capital and almost all in my next two cities.
 
Is the "upscaled building costs" still applicable?

I prefer to have to carefully choose each building
 
Here is the final table and I increased iConstructPecent 10% to make the Buildings a bit slower.

Gamespeed iConstruct now iResearch now iCon/iRes Ratio now iConstruct new iResearchPercent new iCon/iRes Ratio new
GAMESPEED_NORMAL 135 220 0,6136363636 106 200 0,53
GAMESPEED_EPIC 180 400 0,45 212 400 0,53
GAMESPEED_MARATHON 370 500 0,74 312 588 0,5306122449
GAMESPEED_SNAIL 500 750 0,6666666667 550 1035 0,5314009662
GAMESPEED_EONS 1000 1500 0,6666666667 1100 2070 0,5314009662
GAMESPEED_ETERNITY 1000 2250 0,4444444444 1562 2941 0,5311118667
 
Here is the final table and I increased iConstructPecent 10% to make the Buildings a bit slower.

Gamespeed iConstruct now iResearch now iCon/iRes Ratio now iConstruct now iResearchPercent new iCon/iRes Ratio new
GAMESPEED_NORMAL 135 220 0,6136363636 106 200 0,53
GAMESPEED_EPIC 180 400 0,45 212 400 0,53
GAMESPEED_MARATHON 370 500 0,74 312 588 0,5306122449
GAMESPEED_SNAIL 500 750 0,6666666667 550 1035 0,5314009662
GAMESPEED_EONS 1000 1500 0,6666666667 1100 2070 0,5314009662
GAMESPEED_ETERNITY 1000 2250 0,4444444444 1562 2941 0,5311118667

Kind of confusing, i currently have for eternity here:

Code:
		<GameSpeedInfo>
			<Type>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_ETERNITY_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>1600</iGrowthPercent>
			<iTrainPercent>750</iTrainPercent>
			[B]<iConstructPercent>1420</iConstructPercent>[/B]
			<iCreatePercent>2000</iCreatePercent>[B]
			<iResearchPercent>2941</iResearchPercent>[/B]

and Eons here:


<GameSpeedInfo>
<Type>GAMESPEED_EONS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EONS</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EONS_HELP</Help>
<iGrowthPercent>1100</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>550</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>1000</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>1400</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>2270</iResearchPercent>


numbers arent matching up, this is for gamespeedinfo only correct??

Also is the now the new for iConstruct?
 
Kind of confusing, i currently have for eternity here:

Code:
		<GameSpeedInfo>
			<Type>GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_ETERNITY</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_ETERNITY_HELP</Help>
			<iGrowthPercent>1600</iGrowthPercent>
			<iTrainPercent>750</iTrainPercent>
			[B]<iConstructPercent>1420</iConstructPercent>[/B]
			<iCreatePercent>2000</iCreatePercent>[B]
			<iResearchPercent>2941</iResearchPercent>[/B]

and Eons here:


<GameSpeedInfo>
<Type>GAMESPEED_EONS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EONS</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_EONS_HELP</Help>
<iGrowthPercent>1100</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>550</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>1000</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>1400</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>2270</iResearchPercent>


numbers arent matching up, this is for gamespeedinfo only correct??

Also is the now the new for iConstruct?

I changed iConstructPercent a bit and the second iConstruct is the new one.
 
So I haven't started a serious game since the maintenance system was changed.

How is it working out?
 
Question: Did the iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance get pushed down again?
I am having a way too easy time to expand again in my new game (v35+SVN) and checking the Handicap.info I note that they are again in the single digits, not really going up at all very much.
What was the reasoning behind that, if I may ask?


Cheers

Edit: Noticed that the Nightmare handicaps were in a separate location and indeed still going up where they should go. Will have to figure out why it feels rather easy then, while still in Chiefdom, to push past 15+ cities

Cheers
 
There is I suppose if you reduce the PreTribeMaint bonus over time by adding in a bunch of "+xx%maintenance with x tech" to it. About 40 or 50% might do the trick, or if you really want to push it do 70-80% before Chiefdom so by the time you get to Cheifdom tech it obsoletes as well instead of only being removed by civic switching.

Techs I would suggest are:
Bone Working (+10%)
Bead Making (+10%)
Barter (+10 or 20%)
Carpentry (+10%)
Tribalism (+10 or 20%)
Chiefdom (+10 or 20%, or Obsoleting)

Yes, I am aware that some of those, Bead Making and Barter, are not needed to get to Tribalism and Chiefdom but when getting those income usually increases as well so it is a question of playing style and plans. I would still think the benefit of those two techs are worth it when having more than 2 cities, or if still having only 1 city.

The PreTribeMaint really should be made into a normal free building though but the need (in my opinion) to cut it down to only 2 cities makes that hard.
Maybe have 2 of them;
"Nomad Chief's Tent", gives -90% Maint, (+maint by techs), and a free "Chief's Tent" in every City. Can not be built in the same city as a "Chef's Tent".
"Nomad Chief's Family Tent", gives -90% Maint, (+maint by techs), and a free "Chief's Family Tent" in every City. Can not be built in the same city as a "Nomad Chef's Tent" or "Nomad Chief's Family Tent".
For instance. Not sure the 2x "can not be built" is possible though.

How is the Ancient and upwards game feel though with the Nightmare increased maintenances?

Cheers
 
Oh, sorry, also change the Shoplifting Crime to kick in at Trade, not Barter, and perhaps not be so costly?
That one is a really high cost for a small thing, especially in Prehistory. I can understand it costing that much in a hightech society but not in an Ancient/Classic world, and absolutely not in a Pre-history world.
I would say that it alone can topple a civ's economy when changing to Chiefdom and it's real cost (not -90%) kicks in.

Cheers
 
I made some tests with a few new formulas to calculate the NumCities maintenance a few weeks ago but real life made it impossible to finish it.


@BlueGenie

Could you explain the changes you made and strategyonly put into the svn a few months ago. My plan was to revert most of those changes and do something different but i had no time to do that. I thing some of your changes are just wrong or i'am but maybe knowing the reasoning behind could help me to understand them.
 
I do not know about wrong though a few of them are a patching over instead of addressing issues.

First off I figured City Maintenance costs in C2C were way low as they were not really buffed up between versions even if new +gold buildings were added so I tweaked them a little, then a little more, and when a little did not make much difference I set to increasing them a lot, then a lot more, until I got to the numbers I posted earlier in this thread, and tweaked more with more testing:

Spoiler :
First off in Civ4WorldInfo.xml;
the entries for <iDistanceMaintenancePercent> and <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent> changes were:
From:
Size Dist #
Duel 50 45
Tiny 60 40
Small 70 35
Std 80 30
Large 90 25
Huge 100 20
Giant 150 15
Giga 175 10
TO:
Size Dist #
Duel 380 1000
Tiny 360 950
Small 340 900
Std 320 850
Large 300 800
Huge 280 750
Giant 260 700
Giga 240 650

These have since been changed to:
Size Dist #
Duel 300 600
Tiny 275 550
Small 250 500
Std 225 450
Large 200 400
Huge 175 350
Giant 150 300
Giga 125 250
for a better progression.


Next up is Civ4HandicapInfo.xml. Here it is the same areas and now also added <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>. My numbers are;
Difficulty Dist # Max
Settler 63 70 20
Chief 72 80 25
Warlord 81 90 30
Noble 90 100 35
Prince 95 105 40
Monarch 99 110 45
Emperor 104 115 50
Immortal 108 120 60
Deity 117 130 70


Due to this also setting initial City Maintenance of several gold at year 50'000 BC and the very first city I needed to do something about that to reduce the Maintenance in the start, during PreHistory. I also believe money should not really matter in PreHistory but for game-play sakes it is needed.
So I invented the PreTribeMaint (bad name, I knew it then too, just supposed to be a place-holder anyway) that gives -90% Maintenance to the city, and limited it to maximum of 2 so a third city would cost full maintenance. It auto-builds in Anarchism governments and is removed when switching to Chiefdom.

With increased City Maintenances all the large changes in Civics made a drastic difference so I went through and tweaked them a bit, lowered most values and removed a few from civics that maybe should not have a part in City Maintenance at all.
I think most Rule Civics should have their changes to Number of Cities halved still though after having done a few more games with the changes: 25 percentages to 15's and 20 percentages to 10's, 15's either to 10's or 5's, and 10's to 5's. Distance looks good or could even be increased a bit as that has a much lesser impact on total costs.
The same really goes for other civic areas too but to a lesser extent.


I also reduced the +City Maintenances the City Halls buildings to +5, +10, +25 instead of +10, +25, +50, and set Chief's Hut to give -10% too for a slightly better progression from Anarchism to Chiefdom.
That last is sorely needed as otherwise a really huge hit in economy suddenly comes when switching to Chiefdom. Even so it is a big hit (and the changes to Shoplifting (crime) did not alleviate that) and a better progression would be very good to have.

I also increased initial starting free units from 4 to 10 (which I think you reverted to 4 again) so that the by now very much reduced income in the start (from all the -xx% gold, not from my changes) would not hinder a nation to save some animals or sport a small army if need be. Some and small being the key words.

Secondly while asking around in forums and fixing that I found out that there is a mechanics to increase the maintenance due to the number of cities a player has. Looking at it I rather quickly realised that that mechanics had not been touched despite C2C both being very heavy in the adding all kinds of things, science, culture, hammers, and of course, gold in buildings, and also being very friendly to having big empires (even if using revolution).
A few tests and checks later I saw that after reaching this cut-off from additional cities no longer increasing maintenances due to number of cities there no longer was a loss in placing a new city, not even if placing 20 new cities, as the "more is more" free buildings auto-built by a new city was higher than the maintenance cost of that city.
I did a "show and tell" test that I posted to show that effect in Bugs and Crashes here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=530432

Basically once having reached that limit there is no negative effects from expanding to fill the world up at all, especially if building gold buildings in all new cities.
Possibly having a lot of the buildings that cost a lot in maintenance would increase costs so that this kind of expansion would not be as easy (but still possible) but catering to all play-styles should not mean a no negative building/hyper-expansion strategy wins over any other. In my opinion, and I like expanding a lot myself (which is how I could find this).

That figured out I changed them slightly. Then more. Then a lot more. The Handicap file in SO's Nightmare option shows the final derivation but those have not been fully tested as I only run in Deity (now gone down 2 steps in a test game though) so I have not yet reached the new cap. I suspect though that they could be tweaked to be maximum 30 in Deity and 10 in Settler, or thereabouts, and somewhat progressively between the two, though in most games the upper cap of 30 would seldom be reached in Deity either.

I know how a lot of people say that settling a new city should not increase the cost in the old cities, which in a way is true. What does increase for every city though is the overall costs; political, administrative, state, bureaucratic, tax-collecting, basically most of the civics increased costs. Since that has no own place I suppose the increases for all cities reflect that somehow. And no, the Civic Costs are not increasing by more cities needing overseeing, it is a fixed sum per city depending on it's size, not on how many one has.
If the added costs can be set there though instead of in each city on it's own that might work too, but figuring out how to change it by amount of cities might be hard to do and balance, and as I am no modder I can not even begin to know how that would be done.

Oh, and if using an increased City Maintenance cost the arbitrary City Limits can be dispensed with, I think.

I probably missed a bunch of things but that is my overall thinking, albeit shortened.
Ask if you have any questions.

Cheers
 
How would it go if we increased the numcity maint dramatically and reduced the base maint so we could eliminate the pretribemaint?

I'd also like to test what happens if the maxnumcitymaint is increased dramatically as well. Could help tame some of the runaway gold in the later phases of the game.

Stronger distance to capital could be interesting to make it a bit tougher for more distantly settled cities, particularly in the early phase.

I do think, however, that civics and traits should have a powerful effect on maintenance costs of all kinds.
 
QUOTE=Thunderbrd
How would it go if we increased the numcity maint dramatically and reduced the base maint so we could eliminate the pretribemaint?

If you can do that then that could work. Remember that the preTribeMaint give -90% so basically you would need to reduce the base by 90% as well which might give it's own problems as the numbers for Num and Dist are then needing a x10 increase or later eras will be dead cheap still.
It would solves the Anarchism/Chiefdom problem BUT a second city during Anarchism would break a nation totally, which might not be wanted. Might even want to have ability to have 3 or even 4 Cities in Anarchism.


I'd also like to test what happens if the maxnumcitymaint is increased dramatically as well.

We did in the Nightmare settings. Try a game with it to see.

Stronger distance to capital could be interesting to make it a bit tougher for more distantly settled cities, particularly in the early phase.

Could be. I was being very conservative with the Distance changes, even if they look to be dramatic. Needs testing really.

I do think, however, that civics and traits should have a powerful effect on maintenance costs of all kinds.

That they should but right now when still in early Ancient with Chiefdom a 25% change equals >100:gold: in maintenance change (16 cities, NOT Deity) so I would say 15% and 10% are still having a big impact with the higher MaxNumCity.
After all it might not be good to basically state that if you do not have -25 or-20% NumCityMaint in a Civic then you do not chose it due to it's costs?

/QUOTE
 
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