NEW Handicap's

[strategyonly]

@BlueGenie

Are you sure these maint modifiers are not effecting the AI's growth?? I am playing a Snail game and i am in mid-Ancient Era and nobody has built a 2nd city?? Tons of units but no cities?????? Also i have to stay at 0 on my slider for scientific because i cant get any gold amounted to anything??

 

[BlueGenie]

Can you attach a save?
I do not know what your settings are, but in my game, Deity, Huge, Eternal, I have 8 cities when the two top AI I see have 20+ each, so in my games they are expanding.
I have money too, have to save and do some wealth build right now because Australia is throwing units at me so I ahv to defend myself with a lot of units.
How many cities did you put out, and did you change to new Civics to get costs down?
I'll DL the newest SVN to check your save out, if there's something completely off, but the changes themselves should not have done that.
I do not know if too many units are wreaking havoc with the AI's presumption of expanding with any changes made since 7780 or so, which is around where my build is currently. High unit costs could make the AI, and you, expand slower, or not at all.

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

Can you attach a save?
I do not know what your settings are, but in my game, Deity, Huge, Eternal, I have 8 cities when the two top AI I see have 20+ each, so in my games they are expanding.
I have money too, have to save and do some wealth build right now because Australia is throwing units at me so I ahv to defend myself with a lot of units.
How many cities did you put out, and did you change to new Civics to get costs down?
I'll DL the newest SVN to check your save out, if there's something completely off, but the changes themselves should not have done that.
I do not know if too many units are wreaking havoc with the AI's presumption of expanding with any changes made since 7780 or so, which is around where my build is currently. High unit costs could make the AI, and you, expand slower, or not at all.

Cheers

For testing i NEVER EVER play on anything except "usually" Marathon, but DH said he was having a tech problem, that techs were coming waaaay too fast, and now they are for some reason???
But for me i keep at a very very minimum of units in my cities, infact probably the very least.
So the current attached game is Snail, i usually hate Snail and above because they are waaay too slow on giving techs, but now they are just like Epic for some reason?? (On Snail at least from what i am seeing?)

Right now the next version is scheduled to be uploaded, after Midnight, so anything soon would help, thx.
This game goes to SVN 7851

 

[BlueGenie]

Current SVN, checking.

Research:
Worldinfo.xml; iResearchPercent
Increase them. Try
From Duel up: 100, 110, 125, 145, 170, 200, 250.

The BBIA (iTechCostModifier) in Era Info can be used to tweak extra. 0 = 100%, 20 = 120% of research beakers needed, increase until satisfied. I use what is in my handicap taht you got with the other files if you want o check what I did. I also set iResearchPercent to 100 on all, feeling taht to do double changes (both reduction in science output and increase in beakers needed) is overkill and makes it harder to actually set and see changes properly.

As for the costs I think I know. The NIMBY buildings (are you running with auto-build NiMBY/YIMBY in "my mods", I think you are as the AI has the same trouble) are high cost/low gain buildings you do not really want in all your cities, not does the AI. Those have to be checked and any high cost buildings, i.e. increased maintenances, need to be not autobuilt.
Removing Graveyards, Sentry Posts, Crusifiction Crosses, Healers Hut (except for the Healer's Hut in your capital) in your save makes your gold at 100% science go from -44 to -14.

The AI will have the same problem and will explain why it is not expanding. It can not run a good economy with NIMBY/YIMBY MyMods on with proper maintenances.

You also have expanded faster than your ability, despite the Civic stating "more than 6" as that city limit no longer is what you can expand to.
You also have 2 cities far, far off for your map size this early, costing 6 and 5 in distance costs already.
If you abandon Nippur (or never built it if you go back one turn) you are at -2 at 100% science, and have a maintanable nation for your size. A couple more buildings and you are on the right track.
Before settling new cities you should have a good economy, like going green by a fair amount, otherwise increased costs will have you struggling, which can be fun too, if you want to try that.

If you want early game to allow more cities faster, which I am not so sure about, then the WorldInfo maintenance numbers can be tweaked down a bit, but the flipside of that is way, way too manby cities once you reach Classical Era and Republic Civic, like 40+.
For me the beginning is not about spaming cities but building up the few one has, exploring, getting to know and spy on new civs, neighbours, and the science one gets.

Anyway, that's what I find from your save.

Cheers

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you want early game to allow more cities faster, which I am not so sure about, then the WorldInfo maintenance numbers can be tweaked down a bit, but the flipside of that is way, way too manby cities once you reach Classical Era and Republic Civic, like 40+.
For me the beginning is not about spaming cities but building up the few one has, exploring, getting to know and spy on new civs, neighbours, and the science one gets.

Unfortunately BG what you have labeled as "spamming cities" is in fact a race between AI vs AI vs Player to grab prime real estate to insure survival. Every time someone does this (tries to restrict expansion, which is erroneously called "spamming") the AI ends up suffering.

I have not started a new game yet so I won't say anymore than I have, until I gather some play time experience.

JosEPh

 

[BlueGenie]

True, but getting your hands on prime real estate has been made possible in other ways too, as well as still being possible with 3-5 cities placed in strategic points.
It's mostly the 20+ cities when getting Monarchy and the other Civics around there I am refering to when I call "spam" but being able to spew out some 10 cities while in Chiefdom is quite "spammy" too.
As for claiming prime land one can use Towers and Palisades and a lethal military. Well, when at war or starting as Minor Civ at least. When starting at peace with your neighbours I suppose only Towers and Palisades work, and then best when managing to block of segments completely.

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

Towers and Palisades work, and then best when managing to block of segments completely.

Cheers

Thats exactly what i do

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Claiming strategic resources and choke points with towers and palisades is part of what Super Forts gives to the AI players.

 

[MacCoise]

True, but getting your hands on prime real estate has been made possible in other ways too, as well as still being possible with 3-5 cities placed in strategic points.
It's mostly the 20+ cities when getting Monarchy and the other Civics around there I am refering to when I call "spam" but being able to spew out some 10 cities while in Chiefdom is quite "spammy" too.
As for claiming prime land one can use Towers and Palisades and a lethal military. Well, when at war or starting as Minor Civ at least. When starting at peace with your neighbours I suppose only Towers and Palisades work, and then best when managing to block of segments completely.

Cheers

Surely this is all about your game style and choices

 

[Thunderbrd]

We've also got to remember to instill some realism here. In the Ancient world, the Sumerians were the first to reach a great empire status so far as we know and they would've commanded somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8 cities at most. 2 if we're looking at a Large Earth Map. Commanding much more would have been very difficult for our governmental structures at the time and often larger empires fractured because it was too easy for a power grab to take place at the fringes of the nation.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Surely this is all about your game style and choices

+1
So far I have to agree.

I just took out Shaka before 8000BC on Monarch Difficulty, Huge PM map, Marathon game speed. He had 1 city. Never was able to do this before because he would have had as many cities as I would have. Shaka's captured Capitol makes my 6th city. The AI that I have met , their growth is way too slow.

I've met 2 other AI out of 10 in the game and the biggest has 3 cities total. While Sedentary Life was reached by an AI in 14000+BC, 8 turns before me.

My research slider has been between 45% and 65% for most of the game. With ocassional bumps to 90% to get a tech finished. And as low as 0% after founding my 3rd and 4th cities. My gold is usually negative per turn. It was several goodie huts and Islands that gave me a 2-300 gold treasury to work with thru this early game.

Sidenote: I didn't have my 2nd city till After I had researched Chiefdom so that Anarchism strictive Wonder/building was not even a factor. As I understand it. Maybe it's a hidden restriction that extends beyond the Civic Anarchism?

@T-Brd,
Sorry bud, but that argument really doesn't hold much water in this mod.

My "initial reaction" is: the AI is suffering.
Reason: Every time someone tries to stifle expansion to slow the player from expanding (the ever notorious spamming cities labeling) the AI ends up on the short end. Further play will either reinforce this perception or not.

My observations so far in new game up to 7500BC.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

+1
So far I have to agree.

I just took out Shaka before 8000BC on Monarch Difficulty, Huge PM map, Marathon game speed. He had 1 city. Never was able to do this before because he would have had as many cities as I would have. Shaka's captured Capitol makes my 6th city. The AI that I have met , their growth is way too slow.

I've met 2 other AI out of 10 in the game and the biggest has 3 cities total. While Sedentary Life was reached by an AI in 14000+BC, 8 turns before me.

My research slider has been between 45% and 65% for most of the game. With ocassional bumps to 90% to get a tech finished. And as low as 0% after founding my 3rd and 4th cities. My gold is usually negative per turn. It was several goodie huts and Islands that gave me a 2-300 gold treasury to work with thru this early game.

Sidenote: I didn't have my 2nd city till After I had researched Chiefdom so that Anarchism strictive Wonder/building was not even a factor. As I understand it. Maybe it's a hidden restriction that extends beyond the Civic Anarchism?

@T-Brd,
Sorry bud, but that argument really doesn't hold much water in this mod.

My "initial reaction" is: the AI is suffering.
Reason: Every time someone tries to stifle expansion to slow the player from expanding (the ever notorious spamming cities labeling) the AI ends up on the short end. Further play will either reinforce this perception or not.

My observations so far in new game up to 7500BC.

JosEPh

Initially, based on your observations, I'd have to say, given how low you've had to keep your slider, 40 or 50 should be the current setting for the AI economic expansion margin global. They'd be holding off and staying stuck at 1 city because they cannot reach the clear 80% research (without losing gold to do so or building any gold in any cities to manage it without losing gold) that the current one demands they can be on before they will build settler units. This is what it means to have that Economic global set at 20. They should be cautious but not self destructively cautious. Just as they should not be self-destructively reckless in building more cities either.

I'm not against your playstyle... I AM for making it a bit more difficult because no playstyle should be better than another and early civs shouldn't be sprawling empires where the whole of the continent is taken unless there's a lot of crowded civs in a small area such as you'd see in Europe. I mean... how many city states made up the great and powerful Greece? 5? I believe it's perfectly ok to enforce that there can still be significant wild lands all the way into the Medieval due to restraints on the volume of cities an empire can successfully manage. I'm, however, against arbitrary limits and would prefer to see it enforced as a matter of compounding upkeep which it seems like we're seeking in this new system here.

 

[strategyonly]

+1
So far I have to agree.

I just took out Shaka before 8000BC on Monarch Difficulty, Huge PM map, Marathon game speed. He had 1 city. Never was able to do this before because he would have had as many cities as I would have. Shaka's captured Capitol makes my 6th city. The AI that I have met , their growth is way too slow.

I've met 2 other AI out of 10 in the game and the biggest has 3 cities total. While Sedentary Life was reached by an AI in 14000+BC, 8 turns before me.

JosEPh

Same here, but this has been this way, since the recomp/recaluations that were done???? Plus the Size Matters/?? mod. Its really screwing up the AI? Plus all this UnitAI's i believe are waay to many. Subcombattypes etv etc etc?? Too much for this mod.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Same here, but this has been this way, since the recomp/recaluations that were done???? Plus the Size Matters/?? mod. Its really screwing up the AI? Plus all this UnitAI's i believe are waay to many. Subcombattypes etv etc etc?? Too much for this mod.

It helps to be well educated on what's causing trouble for the AI before tossing around accusations as to what it's struggling with. SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT being too low will cause the AI to reduce it's aggression for new cities. Last I knew it was set to 20. 40 seems to have been a better balance as the games I've played have had a rather aggressive AI when it came to building new cities.

Size Matters may have overly simplistic AI but it's not impeding the AI players at all. UnitAIs? Too many? No. Quite the opposite. Poorly assigned UnitAIs yes. Not finely detailed enough UnitAIs (thus MORE are needed) yes. Multiple Unitcombats has not impacted the AI in the least bit.

But in general the AI is weak because a lot has been done to the mod and a lot of work is needed to get the AI caught up to handling it well. This will be a major project for me in the coming months that will hold off much of any other developments so that we can all quit ing about the horrible things I've added to the mod and pointing the finger at things that have nothing to do with the struggles the AI has. At least what I've made is optional and thus not at all a prerequisite for play.

 

[strategyonly]

Just had to get stuff off of my brain is all, now i feel better

And i am still getting only 1 city in 4 civs, but the other 2 are like 15 cities, and i am close to Classical, abtw
SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT is at 40.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just had to get stuff off of my brain is all, now i feel better

And i am still getting only 1 city in 4 civs, but the other 2 are like 15 cities, and i am close to Classical, abtw
SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT is at 40.

Set it higher then. The clear answer here is that the AI is not keeping its economy healthy enough to grow under the new upkeeps that are stressing it.

 

[BlueGenie]

I think Yimby/Nimby My Mods buildings, or if the AI builds a lot of the high cost/little gain buildings plays a larger role in the AI's expansion than the Safe Gold number.
I am running with 20 on it and the AI are outpacing me with settling new cities. Granted I'm on Deity, Eternal, but still. My 11 current cities v 27, 24, 12, (and one 8) among those I can see.
I DO notice that the AI initially seems apprehensive with placing their second city when starting with two Bands of Homo Sapiens. Those that do seem to outpace everyone else. Those that do not (the 12 and 8 city nations) are still at pace with me.

Basically try not to use and add things that increase maintenances too much, building maintenances as well as City maintenances.

@SO: On other observations the Government Civics need tweaking a bit more to make Monarchy and up them more diverse and attractive, and also so they do not pump costs too high up.
The +25%'s I have set on Rep and Theo might be an idea to reduce to 20% at least. Maybe 18%.

Cheers

 

[strategyonly]

When testing you should never run but on Normal and nothing larger than Huge map with either Snail or Marathon. at least IMPO

 

[BlueGenie]

I did a few tests, Large, Standard, Epic, Eternal are the variations I used.
This one here is my game, no longer a test, though of course with C2C everything is always a test. *grin* Which is why it is now observations and not testing or checking.

Cheers

 

[MacCoise]

So am I stuick with this new system if I update to V 35 or SVN?