New Russian/Indian stealth fighter

[woody60707]

I just do not get how the so called stealthy fighters can make that much difference on their own.
Now I take it to remain stealthy a F 22 has to have it's radar turned off, if that is the case I also assume they need a data link from an Awacs aircraft to see other aircraft in the area if out of eyesight.

So what happens if so the Russians develop a long range missile just to go after the Awacs aircraft and in a tiff they knock a couple out of the sky.
Would it be the blind looking for the blind when it comes to stealth aircraft, each afraid to turn their radar on ?

All good points, but also fall under Electronic warfare (which is a HUGH topic). The Missile you are taking about are HARMs (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile) Or just ARM (Anti-Radiation Missile). But there are counters to those too (more then just one). Say you have 3 E-3 flying around, turning on and off it's Radar at random times. Even though you where in the general area they are at, you'll never hit one like that.

EDIT: on the ground that's the basic tactic to dealing with HARM missiles.

 

[Kozmos]

That's not a stealth fight in any way imaginable. No internal hard points (bays for missiles) alone makes it laughable to any claim. (that I can see) This is Russia telling it's own people how great and awesome they are, and hoping they believe it.

Now Russia does make some good aircraft. And someone could make a fair argument that with newer/better radar systems coming out, that stealth fighters are a dead end, and all that jazz.

But it's just not a stealth plane.

Yo Imma really happy for you and Imma let you finish but plasma stealth was the best stealth ever!

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

The equipment they used in Georgia was hardly state-of-the-art, and they do have this 'new Russian imperialism' complex developing...

Some people have this "oh, there are Russians, oh, they are doing something" complex developed...

What do the Indians want a stealth fighter for? Surely not combating insurgents, so is it a deterrent for any potential aggressors, or just a sensible thing to possess for any country aiming to become a significant world player?

For the same thing the Europeans made their Eurofighter.

I'd be surprised if Russia builds them in huge numbers though. It would be quite telling if they did.

They want to replace all Su-27, Mig-29 and Su-35 with it, media says.

Spend more money on stealth fighters rather than like roads or schools or any unimportant thing like that. Yeah thats the way to develop.

LoL. American military budget for 2009 is somwhere $680 billion, and educational budget is $45.4 billion.

 

[Kozmos]

I think it's all for a secret barrel roll contest.

 

[otago]

All good points, but also fall under Electronic warfare (which is a HUGH topic). The Missile you are taking about are HARMs (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile) Or just ARM (Anti-Radiation Missile). But there are counters to those too (more then just one). Say you have 3 E-3 flying around, turning on and off it's Radar at random times. Even though you where in the general area they are at, you'll never hit one like that.

EDIT: on the ground that's the basic tactic to dealing with HARM missiles.

I'm curious, why only radar homing against a large multi engined aircraft ? can they not use both radar and infrared homing to guide a missile ?
I am assuming they will not be turning the engines on and off.

 

[Patroklos]

LoL. American military budget for 2009 is somwhere $680 billion, and educational budget is $45.4 billion.

As it should be, the Federal goverment is not in charge of education in the US.

 

[Canabrava]

Brazil lose this oportunity... will buy Rafale and pay more.

 

[Riffraff]

More war toys...

 

[BSmith1068]

I just do not get how the so called stealthy fighters can make that much difference on their own.
Now I take it to remain stealthy a F 22 has to have it's radar turned off, if that is the case I also assume they need a data link from an Awacs aircraft to see other aircraft in the area if out of eyesight.

So what happens if so the Russians develop a long range missile just to go after the Awacs aircraft and in a tiff they knock a couple out of the sky.
Would it be the blind looking for the blind when it comes to stealth aircraft, each afraid to turn their radar on ?

Just to add to this part of the discussion, the F-22 can communicate with other advanced fighters like the F-35 and other F-22s as well. One F-22 could have it’s radar on and share that info with several others. This increases the flexibility and complexity of an operation making it much harder to counter. Countering this is not as simple as knocking out one large AWACS aircraft that is far from the action.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

As it should be, the Federal goverment is not in charge of education in the US.

Russian military budget in 2009 was somewhere 1000 billions rubles, and education budget was ~400 billions rubles. A little bit less than 1/2, while the US is less than 1/10, so Karalysia statement has no sense.

 

[BSmith1068]

Russian military budget in 2009 was somewhere 1000 billions rubles, and education budget was ~400 billions rubles. A little bit less than 1/2, while the US is less than 1/10, so Karalysia statement has no sense.

Care needs to be taken when comparing these numbers. In the US the states are mainly responsible for education, but not defense. The federal government is responsible for defense, but not much in the way of education.

 

[G-Man]

I just do not get how the so called stealthy fighters can make that much difference on their own.
Now I take it to remain stealthy a F 22 has to have it's radar turned off, if that is the case I also assume they need a data link from an Awacs aircraft to see other aircraft in the area if out of eyesight.

So what happens if so the Russians develop a long range missile just to go after the Awacs aircraft and in a tiff they knock a couple out of the sky.
Would it be the blind looking for the blind when it comes to stealth aircraft, each afraid to turn their radar on ?

The Russians already developed such a missile, the SA-5 (s-200). I don't know the s-400 very well, but I'd assume it can do the same only much better (and much more resistant to EW). In any case, Awacs can probably operate at longer ranges and thus avoid being shot down. Also, note that such long range SAMs require several very large vehicles (in the case of the s-400) or stationary systems (for the SA-5), and are likely to be attacked at the very beggining of any conflict.

Now, for ground attack it's very much possible to handle without a radar - most munitions are GPS guided as it is, and in the modern battlefield the attacking aircraft rarely needs to locate its own target. Also, for both ground and air detection, planes such as the F-22 have an array of passive sensors, which are effective at shorter ranges but can still be very useful (especially if the enemy radar is active).

 

[RedRalph]

Apparently this thing's range is twice that of the Raptor.

 

[sonorakitch]

Actually the PAK FA has been in development for years. From everything I've heard (don't know if there are any Air Force guys on here) the aircraft is nowhere near the F22. Which incidentally is the primary reason the USA has temporarily suspended it's F22 orders; they just don't see any threat in this "new" Russian aircraft.

I've actually heard the Typhoon blows these things out of the water in levels of sophistication and performance, and the Russian's haven't been successful yet in producing and maintaining a proper stealth aircraft. Stealth technology isn't that high tech anymore, but the real key is proper maintenance, which is very costly and something not suited for the Russian or Indian air forces.

They'd be better off just building thousands of cheap Bears and Badgers.

~Chris

 

[RedRalph]

Actually the PAK FA has been in development for years. From everything I've heard (don't know if there are any Air Force guys on here) the aircraft is nowhere near the F22. Which incidentally is the primary reason the USA has temporarily suspended it's F22 orders; they just don't see any threat in this "new" Russian aircraft.

I've actually heard the Typhoon blows these things out of the water in levels of sophistication and performance, and the Russian's haven't been successful yet in producing and maintaining a proper stealth aircraft. Stealth technology isn't that high tech anymore, but the real key is proper maintenance, which is very costly and something not suited for the Russian or Indian air forces.

They'd be better off just building thousands of cheap Bears and Badgers.

~Chris

I'm not saying you are wrong, but how can you possibly know this about a top-secret Russian project which they haven't even tested properly yet?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Care needs to be taken when comparing these numbers. In the US the states are mainly responsible for education, but not defense. The federal government is responsible for defense, but not much in the way of education.

Ok. New York State education budget in 2008 was ~28% of total, and education budget of Leningrad Oblast was ~22%. Not a big difference.

 

[sonorakitch]

I certainly don't "know", but I've got some family and friends in the AF and they of course love talking about this stuff over dinner. So I get to hear things that might not be on Wiki. You're right though---all speculation at this point I admit.

Needless to say, like you said earlier, it won't be a match to the F22 but the cheaper price tag makes it very tempting for cash-strapped buyers.

 

[joycem10]

I'm curious, why only radar homing against a large multi engined aircraft ? can they not use both radar and infrared homing to guide a missile ?
I am assuming they will not be turning the engines on and off.

You have to get close enough to the AWACS/Mainstay (do the Russians still use Mainstays?) to get a weapon lock to engage. A fighter has a much smaller radar envelope in which it can lock its weapons, this is expecially true for infrared guided weapons. They need to close. During that time they are advancing within the bird's detection range and that radar bird is presumably vectoring interceptors to engage the agressor with radar guided missles. These interceptors will be flying with thier radars off and will be undetectible to the agressor until they launch, likely while the agressor is still outside its own engagement range for the radar bird. They then have to either streak in and hope to reach a range at which they can launch before being destroyed or break off the attack.


I was sorely tempted to put unneccesary breaks in my paragraphs.

 

[RedRalph]

I certainly don't "know", but I've got some family and friends in the AF and they of course love talking about this stuff over dinner. So I get to hear things that might not be on Wiki. You're right though---all speculation at this point I admit.

Needless to say, like you said earlier, it won't be a match to the F22 but the cheaper price tag makes it very tempting for cash-strapped buyers.

Oh look, I'm not saying you are lying or anything - it just strikes me that it's too secret of a project for people in Russia, never mind America, to know too much about. But I'm far from an expert on warplanes. Here is more info on it

MOSCOW, January 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's fifth-generation fighter performed its maiden flight on Friday.

* The T-50 is the domestic name of Russia's fifth-generation fighter plane which has been developed as the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) for Russia's Air Force.

* The project started its development by the Sukhoi design bureau since it won the tender in April 2002.

* The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, has been working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designed on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

* The new fighter's exterior design was approved on December 10, 2004.

* Last summer, the fighter's design was approved, and the prototype blueprints were delivered to the KNAAPO aircraft building company based in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where three experimental fighters will be built for testing.

* In February 2009, the first prototype was constructed. After the plane was successfully tested on the runway, a decision was made to stage the maiden flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, rather than in Moscow.

* The prototype fifth-generation fighter made a 47-minute maiden flight on January 29, 2010, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

* Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker.

* The new fighter's exterior was designed using Stealth technology, also known as LO technology (low observable technology).

* The combat aircraft is fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from the Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn.

* The PAK FA can carry either eight next-generation air-to-air R-77 missiles, or two large controllable anti-ship bombs weighing 1,500 kg each.

* The new jet can also carry two long-range missiles developed by the Novator Bureau which can hit targets within a 400 kilometer range.

* The jet can use a take-off strip of just 300-400 meters, and perform sustained supersonic flight at speeds over 2,000 km/h, including repeated in-flight refueling. The highly-maneuverable plane has a range of about 5,500 kilometers.

* The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with advanced avionics to combine an automatic flight control system and a radar locator with a phased array antenna.

* The newest combat aircraft are planned to be mass produced in Komsomolsk-on-Amur from 2015.

 

[Patroklos]

If you are going to bring a knife to a gunfight, just opt for a cup of coffee and a good movie at home instead