New unique abilities discussion

[Louis XXIV]

There's always a risk of misunderstanding, but it's certainly worth leaning towards "true" at this point.

 

[MadDjinn]

What do you mean with the 0.4 modifier?

On defense, a naval unit had it's combat strength reduced by a hidden modifier, after promotions were added. So all Naval units were fragile and would die very easily.

 

[bcaiko]

With the naval rebalance, England's UA could actually mean something. If ships can take coastal cities, I'd be wary of England's fast navy.

Still hope they get some kind of economic bonus, though.

 

[apocalypse105]

With the naval rebalance, England's UA could actually mean something. If ships can take coastal cities, I'd be wary of England's fast navy.

Still hope they get some kind of economic bonus, though.

yeah they should change the unique ship to a unique building that increase production because england played a importont role in the Industrial Revolution

 

[ShahJahanII]

They Aztecs will be fine. Imho they're already the strongest civ with a combination of a very good UB and a good UA that has great synergy with their ability.
Aztec + Honor with Raging Barbarians will let you finish a policiy tree around turn 100 on Epic speed. If there's one civ that could do with a nerf it's the Aztecs, but since people don't like nerfs it's more likely Firaxis will buff existing civs. The Ottomans and the Arabs are both good candidates for a new religon based ability. Maybe religions founded by Arabs will spread much faster than normal.

How about spreading through trade routes?
It''s politically correct, and could be potentially fun.

 

[joncnunn]

On defense, a naval unit had it's combat strength reduced by a hidden modifier, after promotions were added. So all Naval units were fragile and would die very easily.

I find their fragileness has a bit more to do with the inability to heal at all in netural lands (without a promotion)

 

[GoodSarmatian]

How about spreading through trade routes?
It''s politically correct, and could be potentially fun.

That depends on whether we'll get foreign trade routes back, and it could give people an incentive for trade embargoes against Arabia.

 

[ShahJahanII]

That depends on whether we'll get foreign trade routes back, and it could give people an incentive for trade embargoes against Arabia.

Actually, we could do this even within your own empire. Depends on how religion spreads. We don't know the specifics yet.

 

[drubell]

With the Ottomans' UA being universally considered underwhelming and the naval combat focus of the expansion, I'd be incredibly surprised if the Ottomans don't get an overhaul in their UA.

Since I think Songhai and Ottomans are good candidates to change, I wonder if Germany might get another reworking. I think that barbarian-focused UAs, while interesting, provide too little bonus (since barbarians are typically not present for the majority of a game). Barb UAs might get trashed in favor of faith-based UAs.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

With the Ottomans' UA being universally considered underwhelming and the naval combat focus of the expansion, I'd be incredibly surprised if the Ottomans don't get an overhaul in their UA.

Since I think Songhai and Ottomans are good candidates to change, I wonder if Germany might get another reworking. I think that barbarian-focused UAs, while interesting, provide too little bonus (since barbarians are typically not present for the majority of a game). Barb UAs might get trashed in favor of faith-based UAs.

Hard to say. Warlords introduced three new traits and changed many leaders, but CiV has UAs instead of traits. I don't think they'll change UAs for civs that aren't directly affected by new game mechanics -like Songhai and possibly the Otttomans- or strongly associated with them (Arabia -Religion).
That's not to say I'm against changes. I really don't like how Germany is a purely militaristic civ with a warmonger ability and two UUs.

 

[vonbach]

I really don't like how Germany is a purely militaristic civ with a warmonger ability and two UUs.

This is one thing I hope they'll change.

 

[ShahJahanII]

I wonder how they will do the Dutch.
I would really like a commerce/naval civ, but a Dutch article mentioned something about converting marshlands to "profitable fields". This may be a polder UB/UI or something of the sort.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I wonder how many naval abilities they can add. We already have Polynesia and Denmark with probably good abilities (I'm not certain, don't have DLC) and England and the Ottomans with poor ones (hopefully the Ottomans will be changed). I'd rather have something commercial or cultural for the Dutch which signifies that they were always a really small country with many colonies nonetheless.
'convert marshlands to profitable fields', what does that even mean ? They can immediately do something that others can after they research masonry ? Sounds pretty poor.
Maybe that's not their ability and instead of a UB they have a unique improvement that can only be built on marshland ?
I think a fitting -though not very creative- ability for the Dutch would be a city state bouns like Siam's for Mercantile CS, if you think of city states as colonies.
Give Siam better yields from cultural and militaristic CS and give the Dutch better yields from Maritime and Mercantile ones.

 

[anandus]

I wonder how many naval abilities they can add. We already have Polynesia and Denmark with probably good abilities (I'm not certain, don't have DLC) and England and the Ottomans with poor ones (hopefully the Ottomans will be changed). I'd rather have something commercial or cultural for the Dutch which signifies that they were always a really small country with many colonies nonetheless.

One ability I can think of, which could be a Dutch, a Cathaginian (or future Portuguese) UA is something like "overseas trade routes generate more money".
It would fit very nicely for those civs

'convert marshlands to profitable fields', what does that even mean ? They can immediately do something that others can after they research masonry ? Sounds pretty poor.
Maybe that's not their ability and instead of a UB they have a unique improvement that can only be built on marshland ?

I think so, it'll be a tile improvement, a bit like Inca's Terrace Farm. When built on a marsh, you'll build some sort of super farm tile (maybe one added food, like a tile next to fresh water and Civil Service? Maybe one adde gold too?)

I think a fitting -though not very creative- ability for the Dutch would be a city state bouns like Siam's for Mercantile CS, if you think of city states as colonies.
Give Siam better yields from cultural and militaristic CS and give the Dutch better yields from Maritime and Mercantile ones.

Interesting, not perse for the Dutch as such, but an interesting thought to diverse Siam's UA.
Personally I'm afraid Siam's UA will just be expanded to the other CS-types, but it'd be nice if there was a split, two civs with a somewhat similar UA, but for different CS'es.

 

[Optional]

I wonder how many naval abilities they can add. We already have Polynesia and Denmark with probably good abilities (I'm not certain, don't have DLC) and England and the Ottomans with poor ones (hopefully the Ottomans will be changed).

Both Polynesia and Denmark have abilities that apply to land units only, but having to do with embarkation. Ottomans' ability should get better even without changing it. More ships would mean more abilities to convert and hopefully more upgrade opportunities for their free fleet. Also the Admiral will help Ottomans' fleet.
At the moment there's a gap of several ages between the trireme and the frigate, an awfully long gap, and filling that gap will help both Ottomans and England automatically.

I think so, it'll be a tile improvement [the ability to transform marshes into profitable fields, ed]

Why are you thinking the Dutch will get a tile improvement, Anandus, when the Dutch article specificilly mentioned buildings? It could be a kind of mill, that when built, automatically boosts output of every worked marsh tile, similar to what the Iroquois' longhouse does to forests. The Dutch are famous for their windmills, it would be only logical for the game to draw from that.
Perhaps interesting to mention also is this suggestion that got put forward in the ideas and suggestions thread in July:

I'm thinking of the real life windmills that were used for water management, making the land better arable.
In the game a mill like this could be placed in a town to deal with the marshes. You would build a mill in a town that had marshes in its radius, and the effect would be that gradually the marsh tiles got transformed to ordinary grass tiles. Right now a worker with a spade does this, but it's more realistic to have a mill do this.

We have to assume developers are reading these threads and sometimes will pick up something from it, maybe that has been the case here, who knows...

 

[anandus]

Why are you thinking the Dutch will get a tile improvement, Anandus, when the Dutch article specificilly mentioned buildings? It could be a kind of mill, that when built, automatically boosts output of every worked marsh tile, similar to what the Iroquois' longhouse does to forests. The Dutch are famous for their windmills, it would be only logical for the game to draw from that.

Maybe we've read a different article?

In the Dutch article I read it says

Beter nog, de Nederlanders zullen een paar interessante eenheden en gebouwen hebben[...]. Daarnaast kunnen ze moeraslanden ombouwen tot winstgevende velden

Which basically says "The Dutch have some interesting units and buildings [...]. And next to that they can turn marshes into fertile fields", which clearly implies terraforming.
Therefore I think a tile improvement on marshes.

Of course it could be both, a ship, a unique windmill ánd a tile improvement.

 

[CYZ]

You mean three Unique aspects? But every civ only has 2...

I doubt they will give the Dutch three when every other civ has two. The ship has been specified, so we know that for sure. And if that article is correct there will be a UB too. But wheter this UB will affect marshes or if this will be part of the UA is unsure.

I could very well imagine a poldermolen or something that gives a very nice bonus to marshes (not just turning them into grassland, which would be weak). But it could also be the UA ''recieve extra gold or food or whatever from marshes after economics''.

 

[anandus]

You mean three Unique aspects? But every civ only has 2...

I was actually thinking as one of the three being the UA (the one that the Ottomans have now).

And the article in Dutch mentions interesting units and buildings, which I highly doubt.

 

[Optional]

Which basically says "The Dutch have some interesting units and buildings [...]. And next to that they can turn marshes into fertile fields", which clearly implies terraforming.

"Next to that" comes after the section about the ship, which you snipped out. Yeah, it could refer all the way back to the "interesting units and buildings", but it could just refer back to the just aforementioned ship. We don't know, Mr Pants is no lawyer (meaning his language is not as accurate and well thought out as that of a lawyer), his language is ambiguous, and also he's just transcribing something that came to him in verbal English. We can't be sure about anything.
Turning marshes into fertile fields by means of terraforming is something every worker of every civilization is capable of, so I think the Dutch will have something different from that, otherwise it wouldn't be unique. Buildings can add yields to tiles' features, so you can't rule out the Dutch getting a windmill that improves output from marshes without actually removing the marshes themselves.
Historically you can't really say one option is better than the other. In real life mills that pump water away have only a temporary effect. What the Dutch in real life are doing is maintaining a system of constant water management. They can reverse whatever they are doing, swamps can always be turned back into swamps, and it's interesting to note what they did during the 80-year war against the Spanish; often they deliberately flooded the lands outside their cities to thwart the Spanish. If you read the diaries of Spanish soldiers in the Netherlands in that time you'll come across many complaints about the heat. You wouldn't expect this from soldiers from a country warmer than the Netherlands, but the Spanish weren't used to the humid conditions, and of course the armour they had to wear didn't help either.
It would be nice if in Civ the Dutch could profit from the swamps due to their mills, while besieging enemies would still have the penalty from being in swamps. Although I know Civ doesn't pretend to be as historically accuate like this, it would be nice to think they sometimes nailed it on the head, even if only by chance.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I really don't think they Dutch will have a windmill UB that enhances marshes because such a building would frankly suck. I mean, who doesn't clear the marshes around his cities before he has researched Economics ?
It's much more likely that they either have a unique tile improvements that can be built on marshes or they can improve marsh tiles without clearing them and get bonus yields.