New UU's
- Thread starter Michael York
- Start date
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Starting with a non-Byzantine post
That's exactly what happened. Gamespot (I think) said that the Dutch and Portugese were in. There was that WWII screenshot, I think that was about it. Thunderfall said that the Dutch are a civ. After an argument broke out over whether they actually were a civ, TF said that you need to trust him more, and that he wouldn't intentionally post mis-leading info
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I might end up skipping Byzantine all together
Best thing I heard all day
Now I'm just hoping that **** is Assyrian and **** is Horse Archer.
That's exactly what happened. Gamespot (I think) said that the Dutch and Portugese were in. There was that WWII screenshot, I think that was about it. Thunderfall said that the Dutch are a civ. After an argument broke out over whether they actually were a civ, TF said that you need to trust him more, and that he wouldn't intentionally post mis-leading info
-------
I might end up skipping Byzantine all together
Originally posted by Trip
The Dutch UU is the **** and the Portuguese UU is the ****.
Oh, and the **** UU is the ****.
Good enough?
Best thing I heard all day
Now I'm just hoping that **** is Assyrian and **** is Horse Archer.
Go ahead and compile your anti Byzantine arguments, I shall sweep down upon the arguments in Cataphract armor, on a mighty stallion, and thus proceed to smite the petty barbarian arguments in a fashion befit Belisarius' greatest battles 
and also, TF still didnt specify if they Dutch are a scen only civ, conquests mixes it up by having them......
and also, TF still didnt specify if they Dutch are a scen only civ, conquests mixes it up by having them......
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Actually, I like Byzantine and I think they would make a good civ. Currently I've been wondering that, if they are in, what traits will they have. What UU would they have?
There are 28 possible combos (mil,sci,rel,agr,com,ind,sea,exp) and 31 civs. 28 civs are known. 30 are believed to be in my most people. If Byzantine is in, what traits will it have (I've always thought Scientific, Commercial was a good choice, but Greece and Korea could have those traits). Greece could be Sci, Sea, though.
Is there a better choice for UU besides Cataphract (there are an awful lot of Knight units in the game).
There are 28 possible combos (mil,sci,rel,agr,com,ind,sea,exp) and 31 civs. 28 civs are known. 30 are believed to be in my most people. If Byzantine is in, what traits will it have (I've always thought Scientific, Commercial was a good choice, but Greece and Korea could have those traits). Greece could be Sci, Sea, though.
Is there a better choice for UU besides Cataphract (there are an awful lot of Knight units in the game).
Well, I personally think the Religious is a must for them, while the other traits eligible are-
Militaristic- they had quite a few great military emperors, and feild Generals, enough to merit the trait being given to them
Scientific- greek fire, first galass type ships, invented a a writing style for the upper balkan region, in paticular Russia, there is more, but I'm lazy today
Commercial- well, they were the sole trading empire in the Med for the beggings of the dark ages, but its weak trait, I'd prefer that it not get saddled on yet another civ
my personal favorite would be Religious Militaristic
as for UU, well I dont know of a UU that improves the knights offence by one,a fitting improvement for the knight, considering that even though the Byzantines were able to re-take north Africa, and Italy, but were no able to hold it
not to mention the other knight up grades are taken.....
Militaristic- they had quite a few great military emperors, and feild Generals, enough to merit the trait being given to them
Scientific- greek fire, first galass type ships, invented a a writing style for the upper balkan region, in paticular Russia, there is more, but I'm lazy today
Commercial- well, they were the sole trading empire in the Med for the beggings of the dark ages, but its weak trait, I'd prefer that it not get saddled on yet another civ
my personal favorite would be Religious Militaristic
as for UU, well I dont know of a UU that improves the knights offence by one,a fitting improvement for the knight, considering that even though the Byzantines were able to re-take north Africa, and Italy, but were no able to hold it
not to mention the other knight up grades are taken.....
yes, for compativness however I will list all the contendersm including the most notorious Cathaphract, with any arguments for and against them
-Cataphract
replaces- knight
projected stats- 5/3/2
The cataphract were the cream of the Byzantine military for most of its history (more on that later), and sometimes entire battles were fought by them, instaces like this take place in Belisarius' reconquest of Italy, more over, the bulk of the Byzantine elite military core, the Tagmata, which numberd some where around 20,000 troops, and functioned as the Imperial guard. This noted, it should also be said that the Tagmata was initially the "roll over" infantry and cavalry from the late roman era, and in thire time were furnished with some of the best armor and wepons available in the world, that elite equipping often rolled over those Cataphractii units not in the tagmata core
-Fire galley
replaces- good question, good choice for a stand alone addition to some early medieval tech for the Byzantines, ala the precedent set by the spanish UU
stats- another good question, should it replace a standerd sea unit it should have at least 1 more, if not two points added to offense, and perhaps defense as well
well, this one is pretty simple, the Byzantines gained access to the technology required to create greek fire after an inventor, who was refused by an arab army besieging Constantinople, sold this incredible invention to the Byzantines, who then used it to promptlly rout the invaders, sending them packing
It should be noted that I am stronglly against this as a Byzantine UU, for the simple fact that it is a naval unit, and as such, while I like the Civ3 navey, and wish to see imporvments made upon it, this unit simply dose not fit the Byzantines
-Varangian Guard
replaces- Medieval Infantry or long bowmen
projected stats- 4/3/1
well needless to say, I'm opposed to this unit even more then the galley, first off just because a unit with the knights stats, but with out the benifit of two movement is still worth less then a knight, even if horses are not needed
now then, a little history....
after the 11th century the Byzantine army had grown but inefficient and disaffected, as the mighty Byzantine army had become a victim of its own success: how? because by then there was so much reliance on the Tagmata, that the "provincial" standerd armies, made out of part timer farmers, who had been trained (a return to the day of Citizen soldiring as those of the Greek, and Italian city states in many respects) began to be regarded as mere "surplus", and thus had started to loes emphisis, and so when this type of an army sufferd a heavey defeat at the hands of the Seljuk Turks the army, as a whole was ill equipped to deal with it, and while still large on paper, the army was just to strained to deal with everything from Normans in the west, and turks in the east. and so the period of real Byzantine troops ended, as the empire started to use merceaires, the most elite of which were the Viking Varangian Guard, who were recruited from vikings, and (the officers) equipped in Byzantine fashion (the uniforms, while byzantine made, were styled more in viking tastes however, and ofter, the empire didnt even provide the equipment, only offerd repaires and such to what they brought) now this dosent mean that there were no Byzantine citizens in the army, but the mainstay in the declain of the empire, were mercenaries
it is because the the Varangian Guard, represents the troops used during the fall of Byzantium that I am opposed to using them as the Byzantine UU as well
-Cataphract
replaces- knight
projected stats- 5/3/2
The cataphract were the cream of the Byzantine military for most of its history (more on that later), and sometimes entire battles were fought by them, instaces like this take place in Belisarius' reconquest of Italy, more over, the bulk of the Byzantine elite military core, the Tagmata, which numberd some where around 20,000 troops, and functioned as the Imperial guard. This noted, it should also be said that the Tagmata was initially the "roll over" infantry and cavalry from the late roman era, and in thire time were furnished with some of the best armor and wepons available in the world, that elite equipping often rolled over those Cataphractii units not in the tagmata core
-Fire galley
replaces- good question, good choice for a stand alone addition to some early medieval tech for the Byzantines, ala the precedent set by the spanish UU
stats- another good question, should it replace a standerd sea unit it should have at least 1 more, if not two points added to offense, and perhaps defense as well
well, this one is pretty simple, the Byzantines gained access to the technology required to create greek fire after an inventor, who was refused by an arab army besieging Constantinople, sold this incredible invention to the Byzantines, who then used it to promptlly rout the invaders, sending them packing
It should be noted that I am stronglly against this as a Byzantine UU, for the simple fact that it is a naval unit, and as such, while I like the Civ3 navey, and wish to see imporvments made upon it, this unit simply dose not fit the Byzantines
-Varangian Guard
replaces- Medieval Infantry or long bowmen
projected stats- 4/3/1
well needless to say, I'm opposed to this unit even more then the galley, first off just because a unit with the knights stats, but with out the benifit of two movement is still worth less then a knight, even if horses are not needed
now then, a little history....
after the 11th century the Byzantine army had grown but inefficient and disaffected, as the mighty Byzantine army had become a victim of its own success: how? because by then there was so much reliance on the Tagmata, that the "provincial" standerd armies, made out of part timer farmers, who had been trained (a return to the day of Citizen soldiring as those of the Greek, and Italian city states in many respects) began to be regarded as mere "surplus", and thus had started to loes emphisis, and so when this type of an army sufferd a heavey defeat at the hands of the Seljuk Turks the army, as a whole was ill equipped to deal with it, and while still large on paper, the army was just to strained to deal with everything from Normans in the west, and turks in the east. and so the period of real Byzantine troops ended, as the empire started to use merceaires, the most elite of which were the Viking Varangian Guard, who were recruited from vikings, and (the officers) equipped in Byzantine fashion (the uniforms, while byzantine made, were styled more in viking tastes however, and ofter, the empire didnt even provide the equipment, only offerd repaires and such to what they brought) now this dosent mean that there were no Byzantine citizens in the army, but the mainstay in the declain of the empire, were mercenaries
it is because the the Varangian Guard, represents the troops used during the fall of Byzantium that I am opposed to using them as the Byzantine UU as well
didn't byzantine fall because it was more corrupt then communisme 
and i read some where early in this thread Xen was reffering too the European countries as corrupt, while in fact, byzantine was even worst ..especialy during the "Dark" Ages. The same reason they had trouble fending of the turkish raids 
and i read some where early in this thread Xen was reffering too the European countries as corrupt, while in fact, byzantine was even worst
..especialy during the "Dark" Ages. The same reason they had trouble fending of the turkish raids 
wildWolverine
L'Etat, c'est moi
Welcome back Xen! We missed you... 
Chris85
Emperor
The posts in the Conquests forum were getting kinda stale when you were away.
Support for the Byzantines had sharply fell, but I see you've already made up for lost time.
Support for the Byzantines had sharply fell, but I see you've already made up for lost time.
It can get like that some times in other threadsm when one "expert" on a subject starts to push his weight on a subject, other people get intimidated because they are worried they might be wrong- my advice to those who are like that (I know I was at one time...) is just try posting, at worst your wrong, no big deal, and best your right, and have lent your support to the argument you support
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Xen, you keep supporting Byzantine, I want Assyria!
And they aren't mentioned in the Mesopotamian Scenario preview
They are a great civ (I can give reasons if I had time)
And they aren't mentioned in the Mesopotamian Scenario preview
They are a great civ (I can give reasons if I had time)
