New Version - May 19th (5-19)

[BiteInTheMark]

Is anyone ever taking Jesuit Education and Faith of the Masses as something they'd want rather than something they're forced to take because everything of value was taken? I feel they're trash, suboptimal beliefs, both overperformed by DotF in the regards of yields and side effects. As the reformation thread didn't pick any fraction last time, maybe the discussion can occur here. I believe they need a yield upgrade of some sort while DotF could possibly get it's yields nerfed back to 3/1. This belief doesn't need a billion Faith anyway.

I think Defender of the Faith is too strong. You get a strong military advantage and a lot of faith and culture for free. It can be even more culture than the "culture" reformation belief, which makes no real sense to me.
Faith of the Masses is in my eyes decent, if you are relative isolated or have picked a religious civilization. The happiness bonus is nice. But it gets worse if you are in competition with a neighboring religion. Spending faith into normal buildings instead of missionaries could push you into disadvantage against other religions. You didnt get a benefit "for free" like DotF. And the amount of faith you have to spend can get really big, if your empire isnt small. Faith you could also invest in other things like religious buildings and GP.
Jesuit education is terrible. Only 3 buildings with +2 science each doesnt change anything. The rush of the buildings may help science civs, but those didnt need such a minor science buff, its completly neglegible.
Knowledge through Devotion is far far better in kinda every circumstance than Jesuit education. In early modern era, I have 26 GPTI and landmarks in my 7 city empire, thats a total of 104 science and faith per turn vs a possible maximum of 42 science in total. To reach the faith, I would need to spam a GP every turn. KtD also offers culture, which helps with unlocking the policies for wonders and enables me to buy archeologists.

I think, it would be better to switch the bonuses from Jesuit Education and Faith of the masses and buff them greatly. Science buildings (up university) would get +3 / and culture buildings (up from amphitheater) gain +2 /

 

[chicorbeef]

Jesuit Education should buff Libraries and allow them to be purchased as well.

Other than that, the beliefs are good.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I still play a game from the 4-20 version but want to report it here, cause the discussion about the forced secession of cities by a artificial prelonged war was made here.
I had 7 cities with big population and was attacked by Assyria, which had 9 cities, which were only mediocre or low populated.
The war is still raging, cause I want his capitulation but he still refuse, even he has -94 warscore (which is very annyoing). Ive burned 2 of his cities and puppeted another 2, hes down to 9 units vs me with 37.
His happiness is 48/63, which makes a global happiness of 76%. (checked with Ingame Editor, he doesnt have used any landmark to gain happiness)
Ive lost maybe 3 units vs him with 20+ and 4 cites (trade units and improvements similar), but his war weariness is only at 17 (16,5% of his population) while mine is at 53 (also 16,5% of population). Sure, he has authority and I havnt it, but loosing a war that hard, only get a third of war weariness as loser and still stay at 76% global happiness seems extremly strange to me.

Edit: sorry, I mean of course secession

 

[Gazebo]

I still play a game from the 4-20 version but want to report it here, cause the discussion about the forced seduction of cities by a artificial prelonged war was made here.
I had 7 cities with big population and was attacked by Assyria, which had 9 cities, which were only mediocre or low populated.
The war is still raging, cause I want his capitulation but he still refuse, even he has -94 warscore (which is very annyoing). Ive burned 2 of his cities and puppeted another 2, hes down to 9 units vs me with 37.
His happiness is 48/63, which makes a global happiness of 76%. (checked with Ingame Editor, he doesnt have used any landmark to gain happiness)
Ive lost maybe 3 units vs him with 20+ and 4 cites (trade units and improvements similar), but his war weariness is only at 17 (16,5% of his population) while mine is at 53 (also 16,5% of population). Sure, he has authority and I havnt it, but loosing a war that hard, only get a third of war weariness as loser and still stay at 76% global happiness seems extremly strange to me.

Forced seduction eh?

G

 

[Bhawb]

I still play a game from the 4-20 version but want to report it here, cause the discussion about the forced secession of cities by a artificial prelonged war was made here.
I had 7 cities with big population and was attacked by Assyria, which had 9 cities, which were only mediocre or low populated.
The war is still raging, cause I want his capitulation but he still refuse, even he has -94 warscore (which is very annyoing). Ive burned 2 of his cities and puppeted another 2, hes down to 9 units vs me with 37.
His happiness is 48/63, which makes a global happiness of 76%. (checked with Ingame Editor, he doesnt have used any landmark to gain happiness)
Ive lost maybe 3 units vs him with 20+ and 4 cites (trade units and improvements similar), but his war weariness is only at 17 (16,5% of his population) while mine is at 53 (also 16,5% of population). Sure, he has authority and I havnt it, but loosing a war that hard, only get a third of war weariness as loser and still stay at 76% global happiness seems extremly strange to me.

Edit: sorry, I mean of course secession

It is hard to say directly because WW depends on so many factors. I can personally say that I haven't had issues with WW over the course of multiple warmongering games, so my guess is that either there is something weird going on in your game or you missed one of the less obvious WW causing things like pillaged tiles, lost trade units, etc.

 

[ryanmusante]

YOU are a bug.

(Come to think of it, you are... if you assume that the "normal" is Firaxis code and development, then you and @ilteroi are certainly bugs in the system. Please more bugs!)

This project is an inspiration amidst the monotony in my life. Not the only source of inspiration, mind you. But definitely a good one and a healthy one! Kudos @Gazebo and friends!

 

[tu_79]

This project is an inspiration amidst the monotony in my life. Not the only source of inspiration, mind you. But definitely a good one and a healthy one! Kudos @Gazebo and friends!

Same here.
It makes me think I can offer suggestions to the company I'm working with, only to see those suggestions ignored 75% and refused 20%. But one in twenty is getting some consideration, so that's that.

 

[pineappledan]

I get that landmarks are kinda filling a different niche with the +3 happiness, but they really are just horrid tile improvements. Below is a picture of an Ancient Era landmark next to some other tiles for comparison. The city working the landmark has Petra, and is in a golden age in Industrial, so that's why it has +2 on the base tile and the Landmark has 4

Spoiler :

As you can see, a basic lumbermill with no adjacency bonus is kicking the Landmark's ass. A plantation on desert incense is a monster compared to a poopy 44 landmark in Industrial
IMO, you could double Landmarks to +2 per Era and that would still only make the Ancient Era landmarks viable. Something needs to be done because these tiles are dead-weight right now. I'd probably build a landmark for the +3, then replace it with a mine

It's like we have a unique cultural GP tile, except

• it's locked until Industrial
• you have a finite number of them per empire, probably 3-4 in a standard game
• you have no control over where they go, so you might have to break up adjacencies and features to use them
• their yields are pathetic. For comparison, that Academy has 12 in Industrial vs the Landmark's 4

 

[Guynemer]

Agreed; landmarks are a bit of drag right now. The happiness is welcome, of course, but it just completely useless as far as other yields go. It should at least generate as much (and I'd argue at least 50% more) culture and tourism as a holy site.

 

[Enginseer]

but hotels make landmarks increase tourism.

 

[Rekk]

but hotels make landmarks increase tourism.

By a whole ... 1 point. And the city that's working that tile cost the empire ...7?% of the empire's tourism.

 

[Guynemer]

but hotels make landmarks increase tourism.

okay great but they do that for holy sites too, so that isn't particular relevant to my position

 

[pineappledan]

Too much emphasis is put on the era scaler right now. Landmarks currently have 0 base yields, and it means medieval landmarks are trash. They should have 5 or more to start

 

[Bromar1]

Too much emphasis is put on the era scaler right now. Landmarks currently have 0 base yields, and it means medieval landmarks are trash. They should have 5 or more to start

I don't see the point of the scaler anyway. Make them all flat yields, less randomness is probably better

 

[pineappledan]

I think the scaler is great, it’s a fun way to keep them off the tech tree, and it’s a fun thing that emphasizes how far you have progressed in a game. That said, it shouldn’t be the only source of yields.

A medieval landmark is 2 when unlocked in industrial. That’s less than an artifact, and artifacts get more boosts From policies, beliefs, etc., can get themed, and don’t take a to be worked. It’s completely inappropriate for medieval landmarks to be worth so little.

 

[Bromar1]

I think the scaler is great, it’s a fun way to keep them off the tech tree, and it’s a fun thing that emphasizes how far you have progressed in a game. That said, it shouldn’t be the only source of yields

Keep them off the tech tree? I'm not sure I understand.
What if the scaler was only dependent on your current era? So landmarks still improve over time but they all have the same yields

 

[Asterix Rage]

It's a such long and uneasy way too get a Landmark 3 tiles from a city that it should look like a Natural Wonder at Modern Era.
In many occasions, a GW instead is a better deal.

 

[pineappledan]

Keep them off the tech tree? I'm not sure I understand.
What if the scaler was only dependent on your current era? So landmarks still improve over time but they all have the same yields

landmarks scale off era changes, so no icon on the tech tree. It keeps the tech tree tidy. If you removed era scaling you would have to add scaling some other way. Most likely with more icons on the tech tree

The problem isn’t the scaler, the problem is that there is nothing outside the scaler. The difference between an ancient and a medieval landmark in industrial is 4 vs 2, 100% difference. If there was a base yield then it would be maybe 94 vs 72, a 45% difference

Another thing to look at is adding a boost to landmarks from a building, like how stock exchange boosts town, research lab boosts academy, etc.
Maybe Museums could give +2 to landmarks

 

[BiteInTheMark]

landmarks scale off era changes, so no icon on the tech tree. It keeps the tech tree tidy. If you removed era scaling you would have to add scaling some other way. Most likely with more icons on the tech tree

The problem isn’t the scaler, the problem is that there is nothing outside the scaler. The difference between an ancient and a medieval landmark in industrial is 4 vs 2, 100% difference. If there was a base yield then it would be maybe 94 vs 72, a 45% difference

Another thing to look at is adding a boost to landmarks from a building, like how stock exchange boosts town, research lab boosts academy, etc.
Maybe Museums could give +2 to landmarks

I agree, landmarks could get a buff, but I dont think it needs to be a big one. In nearly every game, historical landmarks are picked in the world congress, giving landmarks +1 . Finishing artistry gives another 3 , Knowledge through Devotion +4 and New Deal from freedom ideology +4+5. So theoretically, you can buff landmarks aside from their scaling effect with +5+8+5+3+5. Holy Land reformation also offers a vote in congress for every 2 landmarks.
Cause I pick in most cases one of the two reformations, I see landmarks as a strong improvement, but I agree, without those buffs, its fairly weak.

 

[chicorbeef]

A Knowledge through Devotion + Artistry Landmark is worth working, but not a base one. Also the Historical Sites (or whatever it's called) proposal buffs them too. In pineapple's example the Landmark is on desert...a Plains or Grassland Landmark with the WC proposal wouldn't be quite as bad.

Artifacts do take up slots while Landmarks don't, so that's something to consider.

I don't prioritize Landmarks at all with non-Culture civs though and I would need to have KtD/Artistry to consider making a Landmark, so I think a buff to their base yields (or secondary effect outside of Happiness...like if they gave points when built).