New Wonders!

[GenjiKhan]

You could move Artist-boosting potential to a Hollywood wonder, and have faith from Cristo Redentor.

I think it'd be better to let Cristo Redentor as it is now . The faith bonus doesn't make any sense,as there aren't any kind of religious Pilgrimage to that statue,to justify the faith bonus . Plus,the current bonus in Civ5 fits even better than the bonus of Civ4 .

That's also the biggest problem for late game wonders, that runaway science civs can build them all quite easily. Apart from prohibiting runaway scientists, creating more wonders in the late game then actually combats that effect, not adds to the problem.

One solution to this problem is to make everyone receive a free spy once the first player hit the Industrial/Modern/Atomic/Information age .

 

[Ahriman]

That's also the biggest problem for late game wonders, that runaway science civs can build them all quite easily

I see this as a feature, not a bug. If you're a runaway civ in science (which usually comes from a massive territory or population or infrastructure advantage) then you should win. Getting good access to all the late-game wonders will help you achieve this. One of the biggest problems in civ is that the time between when it is clear that you will win and when you actually achieve a victory condition is too long. The game isn't made more fun by arbitrarily extending that.

I don't think we should have too many Mario Kart catchup mechanics that penalize winners.

We want to have a few - we don't want small advantages to snowball - but once you achieve runaway civ status, you shouldn't get screwed by catchup mechanics.

If you think it is possible to get a runaway lead in science without actually being runaway in overall power, then that is the problem, and part of the solution would be to make some AIs more aggressive to players that have a weak military (because they've poured everything into science) and to boost social policy value (so that being a cultural weakling because you've poured everything into science ends up hurting your economy).

*edit*
To clarify: late-game wonders should matter and be competitive - but mostly only between the civs that are still actual contenders. Rump states or minor powers need not apply. In terms of real world history, we have powerful modern players in the US, Russia, China, Japan, Germany, UK, etc. But we shouldn't expect to see Egypt or Iroquois or Polynesia building many modern wonders.

 

[Thalassicus]

The vem/gem features of tech sharing (lower cost for known techs) and research-agreement sharing are probably enough mechanisms for catching up.

 

[mitsho]

I see this as a feature, not a bug.

Oh, I don't think it's a bug either, it's certainly intended The question was wether it's a good feature or not.

My point is that more late game wonders are not a result of game design, but more probably the game developers running out of development time

Thus, I don't see too big a problem with adding wonders to the late game. And Espionage and the other listed features of VEM/GEM's, one civ gobbling up all the modern wonders shouldn't be a problem, in theory...

 

[SgtCiv]

I'd be very careful about adding new wonders. That can really change the tech-balance (in terms of the relative value of various techs). If there are too many valuable wonders around, then the advantage of having a tech-lead is reduced, because you can't build the wonders before other people get them. And too many wonders also just makes them feel less "special".

I'd oppose adding qualifiers to wonders being built. I already think the mountain-presence is unfortunate. Requiring a lighthouse to build the great lighthouse would make it worthless. You should have to compete for wonders through the tech-race, not just get the chance to build them because no-one else had a good city that met some other requirement.

I'm having a hard time understanding some of your points: You want wonders to remain special, but in the same breath you don't want them to have qualifiers in order to build them. What would make them more special than having to meet some qualifier in order to build them instead of almost everyone of them all you have to accomplish is research a tech and then start building.
To me the ability to build the Pyramids without an improved stone is no different than allowing and inland city the ability to build the Great Lighthouse.
Having a qualifier of having a Lighthouse in order to build The Great Lighthouse also only makes sense. Why should you have the ability to build the Great Lighthouse when your civ doesn't even really know what a lighthouse is in the 1st place.
Well that's my two cents for what it's worth.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'm having a hard time understanding some of your points: You want wonders to remain special, but in the same breath you don't want them to have qualifiers in order to build them. What would make them more special than having to meet some qualifier in order to build them instead of almost everyone of them all you have to accomplish is research a tech and then start building.

The problem he's pointing out isn't so much that additional requirements would make a Wonder less special, but rather that it'd undermine the competition for Wonders - especially if there were many more of them.

If the requirements are overly-strict then the race for Wonders becomes less a world-wide race between all the civs and more a matter of who's willing to or able to jump through all the hoops necessary to get a given Wonder. (Extreme example: "I see no one else is on an island with a Mountain, a Marsh, and an Copper deposit all within range of a single coastal city: I've got the Great Bronze Slide-Park Wonder sewn up!")

I like the idea of some situational requirements for Wonders, but it'd certainly undermine an existing part of the game. At least slightly. I don't know if it's necessarily "too much."

But the more requirements and the more desirable the Wonder, the more likely it is the human player will have an significant advantage over the AI. ("I'll put the city *here* rather than *there*, because then I'll be well-set to build the Great Library first even though I'll be running a few techs behind.")

That may be exactly why Civ5 has fewer requirements on Wonders than previous games.

 

[mitsho]

I do agree on the requirements as well. Having fewer let's the competition stay high. On the other hand, if the requirements are rather common, they serve to slightly improve those city locations.

There are two (four) of those requirements used (imagineable), namely Coast and Mountain, (River and Forest). River City Sites doesn't need to be better, Forest could be used in my opinion to keep the numbers of wonders buildable low, not sure which wonders it fits though. Coast and Mountain (in 2 tile range) are however relatively common and thus might be used a bit more

 

[headcase]

Nice choices everyone.

I'm going to try to help with a little research later, but for now, here's an interesting idea that may be too late to matter much but here it is...

National Wonder - Star Wars Project
- Requires Bomb Shelter in all cities
- Greatly lessens or negates the the city damage, city population loss, unit health loss, and appearance of fallout for any nukes dropped anywhere in the civ's borders.
- +1 culture if NWs always give culture
- +1 scientist slot if NWs have specialist slots

 

[Ahriman]

The problem he's pointing out isn't so much that additional requirements would make a Wonder less special, but rather that it'd undermine the competition for Wonders - especially if there were many more of them.

If the requirements are overly-strict then the race for Wonders becomes less a world-wide race between all the civs and more a matter of who's willing to or able to jump through all the hoops necessary to get a given Wonder. (Extreme example: "I see no one else is on an island with a Mountain, a Marsh, and an Copper deposit all within range of a single coastal city: I've got the Great Bronze Slide-Park Wonder sewn up!")

Exactly. To me, a good indication of whether wonder is special if I might specifically beeline for a tech to get that particular Wonder. A wonder is special if I think "awesome, I beelined for Economics and now I can build Big Ben, which will really help my gold-oriented gameplay strategy". It's not special if I think "ok, I'm the 4th civ to construction, but that's ok, because it provides 5 different wonders, so I'll still be able to get one". Or if I think "I went for sailing in the early game rather than land or military techs, but I'm still not going to be able to build the great lighthouse for ages, and it isn't going to help me much". Or if I think "ok, I'm first to theology, but the Wonder here requires me to have a mountain desert tile in a high production city to be worthwhile".

I just don't find additional terrain or building requirements for wonders to be fun. They already have enough restrictions; you need the right tech, and you have to get there first.

 

[Dunkah]

I am going to have to agree to disagree with you. I dislike the concept of beelining to begin with. It just doesn't make any sense in RL... (but that is an argument for another time).
What you describe is a way to game the system. I don't see why you couldn't do just what you describe and still have a couple of requirements on a wonder.

I do agree that I don't want 5 wonders on the same tech either... or to add too many new ones would be bad. But they are not mutually exclusive by any means either.

Who says the requirement has to be fixed. Why not add a bonus to those that best meet the requirements like they used to do in Civ IV? Instead of requireing Stone for the pyramids make it add 5% - 10% to wonder construction if you have it. Maybe +5% if you are in a dessert terrain. (By the way I would like to see the marble wonder bonus changed to effect only certain wonders as well).

You could add bonuses for all types of things. Copper for Colossus, Stone for Pyramids, Marble for Great Library, Unused Oil for Dam construction etc. Perhaps an improved food source +5%, or horses for hauling +5%, coal for electricity or oil for transport...

WHy not put a timer on wonders. Once the first Civ discovers the timer starts. once so many turns pass you can start construction. A notice can be sent out at the start an end. This would allow Civs that really want to compete for that wonder a chance to beeline for that tech themselves and compete. After all you are researching the tech, not the specific plans for the wonder...

Most wonders were created by someone special. I would love to see a great engineer added to the list or requirements for wonders.

 

[rhammer640]

I am going to have to agree to disagree with you. I dislike the concept of beelining to begin with. It just doesn't make any sense in RL... (but that is an argument for another time).
What you describe is a way to game the system. I don't see why you couldn't do just what you describe and still have a couple of requirements on a wonder.

I do agree that I don't want 5 wonders on the same tech either... or to add too many new ones would be bad. But they are not mutually exclusive by any means either.

Who says the requirement has to be fixed. Why not add a bonus to those that best meet the requirements like they used to do in Civ IV? Instead of requireing Stone for the pyramids make it add 5% - 10% to wonder construction if you have it. Maybe +5% if you are in a dessert terrain. (By the way I would like to see the marble wonder bonus changed to effect only certain wonders as well).

You could add bonuses for all types of things. Copper for Colossus, Stone for Pyramids, Marble for Great Library, Unused Oil for Dam construction etc. Perhaps an improved food source +5%, or horses for hauling +5%, coal for electricity or oil for transport...

I like the idea for copper or marble helping with wonder construction etc but only in the city its being worked in. Otherwise a wide civ would be much better at building wonders due to availibility somewhere in their empire to each resource.

 

[bwoww78]

I like the idea for copper or marble helping with wonder construction etc but only in the city its being worked in. Otherwise a wide civ would be much better at building wonders due to availibility somewhere in their empire to each resource.

i agree that current building requirements for wonders (i.e. mountains & coast) make sense for the wonders in question (e.g. machu pichu & great lighthouse). For starters, there is RL consistency.

the idea that strategic, luxury or bonus resources provide bonuses to construction is a positive inducement to the player and sounds like it fits into Thal's mantra of making the game more fun. it would likely have only beneficial effects to AI play and would provide more planning/strategy for players without being as restrictive as the requirement method.

in short, i like this idea! specific wonders could have specific bonuses (e.g. marble can be a bonus for all wonders, but copper (or iron?) within city borders could be of particular a bonus for construction of colossus).

 

[Ahriman]

Why not add a bonus to those that best meet the requirements like they used to do in Civ IV?

I'm not strongly opposed to soft-boosters, I much prefer them to hard restrictions. But we already have a booster like that; the Marble booster effect. If you start adding tons of different effects, it starts straining logic (why do horses boost this wonder but that one?) and starts getting too complex and annoying for the player to keep track of. Various 5% bonuses also aren't really big enough to really notice; I'd prefer a single 15% bonus that will actually affect wonder completion by a turn or two than an array of 5% bonuses each of which on their own is insignificant. All the different requirements can feel like they just fade into a low-meaning haze.

WHy not put a timer on wonders. Once the first Civ discovers the timer starts. once so many turns pass you can start construction

What gameplay or flavor purpose would this achieve? It just sounds like more unnecessary stuff to keep track of.

Most wonders were created by someone special. I would love to see a great engineer added to the list or requirements for wonders.

But we already have the instant wonder-construction ability of great engineers. If you want a wonder and you have a great engineer you can have it. Preventing you from being able to build the wonder without the great engineer would be way too restrictive.

it would likely have only beneficial effects to AI play

How would this benefit the AI? It would harm the AI relative to the human, because the AI can't do the kind of forward thinking planning that says "hey, this city has <resourceX>, that will make it a good spot for building <wonderY>.

 

[bwoww78]

How would this benefit the AI? It would harm the AI relative to the human, because the AI can't do the kind of forward thinking planning that says "hey, this city has <resourceX>, that will make it a good spot for building <wonderY>.

true. i guess my point was that adding any additional bonuses to wonder construction would support AI (even if only by circumstance rather than planning) when compared to adding more restrictions in wonder construction.

also, it's worth noting that any additional benefit consequently nerfs the Egyption UA...

 

[Dunkah]

I'm not strongly opposed to soft-boosters, I much prefer them to hard restrictions. But we already have a booster like that; the Marble booster effect. If you start adding tons of different effects, it starts straining logic (why do horses boost this wonder but that one?) and starts getting too complex and annoying for the player to keep track of. Various 5% bonuses also aren't really big enough to really notice; I'd prefer a single 15% bonus that will actually affect wonder completion by a turn or two than an array of 5% bonuses each of which on their own is insignificant. All the different requirements can feel like they just fade into a low-meaning haze.

Having Marble give a bonus to the colussus or the great wall or the Great Firewall just doesn't make any sense. It makes the random appearance of Marble too strong... Why should city "x" get a bonus to every wonder it ever creates because it just happens to be next to a marble resource?

What gameplay or flavor purpose would this achieve? It just sounds like more unnecessary stuff to keep track of.

It allows other players to compete for the same wonders while still being able to not beeline directly to a tech. (I dislike beelining!) Instead of a counter triggered by the discovery of a tech it could be a particular date. This would keep beelining down to a minimum.

But we already have the instant wonder-construction ability of great engineers. If you want a wonder and you have a great engineer you can have it. Preventing you from being able to build the wonder without the great engineer would be way too restrictive.

Well it would require the insta build feature to be put aside, Better yet each Civ could be given one GP per era free. This would really spread out/ negate the wonder whoring.

How would this benefit the AI? It would harm the AI relative to the human, because the AI can't do the kind of forward thinking planning that says "hey, this city has <resourceX>, that will make it a good spot for building <wonderY>.

Yes but the AI does that in a lot of things. They will have the advatage of starting with a worker, so would be able to hook up resources earlier.

 

[mystikx21]

More or less I'm siding with Ahriman here.

1) Any game play mechanic that gives a harder limit on where something can be built benefits the player. Several games I get to Machu Picchu simply because I'm the only one with a mountain around already in the city limits. The AI is going to get to a limit mostly by accident rather than by design

2) While I agree marble doesn't make much sense for every wonder everywhere, I do agree that
a) picking anything else would seem arbitrary (other than maybe stone for ancient wonders. But I'm not prepared to say that either is a necessary move since there's a belief in the game to accomplish the same thing)
b) too many other bonuses would nerf the Egyptian UA
c) marble is relatively rare enough that bonuses to a particular city's wonder production is not enormously common, and sometimes occurs in suboptimal cities (tundra or desert areas for instance). Putting in a lot of other bonuses would make it too easy to get wonders. And wonders are supposed to be "wonderful", in some sense, representing a considerable investment.

3) what exactly is the problem with wonder whoring. If someone is ahead on tech, then they should be winning the wonder wars. Alternatively, someone expending a lot of production on wonders is probably not building a military or other infrastructure and can be vulnerable to attack. Especially early on. This then is a trade-off just like any other. That is to say, someone building a lot of wonders isn't building new science buildings in the early to mid game and risks falling behind in the wonder war versus someone who has already sort of won the tech race at the late game. The problem there is really the ability to win a tech race to then accumulate wonders is too easy, not that you can accumulate wonders.

4) The game already offers what seem to be logical restrictions with mountains and coastal cities. Do we really need things like "stone in radius" which feel somewhat arbitrary in restricting who can build what? And if we're talking about bonuses, there's a belief and a social policy to help with wonder construction. What else do we really need?

 

[rhammer640]

I agree with most of the above in regards to no changes needing to be made due to ai restrictions etc, but i think that spreading out the marble bonus to a few others like stone and copper maybe would be nice to make each games strategy unique. Like you might want to bee line for a different wonder than normal due to which resource you find near you or something like that.

 

[mystikx21]

I agree with most of the above in regards to no changes needing to be made due to ai restrictions etc, but i think that spreading out the marble bonus to a few others like stone and copper maybe would be nice to make each games strategy unique. Like you might want to bee line for a different wonder than normal due to which resource you find near you or something like that.

Why would you want to beeline because you can build something faster? If you can build it faster (than someone else could), that's an argument for getting something else done first and not worrying about it. The actual argument for beelining to a particular wonder is if you have a particular use for the wonder that demands that you go out and get it immediately, not that you can build it first or faster than your competition.

In other words, you would beeline for, say, Mausoleum not because you have marble and can get it done faster, but because the Mausoleum improves your marble resource (in addition to its other benefits). Or the Colossus with a coastal start or good coast city, not because you have copper. All the enhanced construction does is speed up how fast or slow you construct it, not how much you would want it.

I don't see why this is necessary or helps the wonder war problem is more to the point. Someone who is out in front tech wise can still build whichever wonders they want with their access to resources, they could just do it faster still. Which is only making the purported problem worse.

It might spread out where you build something, but this is not much of a necessary utility either. You can already do that by trying to concentrate "artist" wonders or "engineer" wonders in one city for example.

 

[SgtCiv]

Well I knew I wasn't going to win this Debate over the topic of qualifiers for specific wonders. I was just voicing my opinions on the matter. I'm more of a RL kind of guy not so much how much more fun is it. I know that Thal puts more thought into how much more fun is it going to add verses how RL it is in most cases and there is nothing wrong with that approach either. In most cases I strongly agree with everything.
My point was there is a Stone resource and seeing how there is why not make it become required to have that resource in order to build the Pyramids, they have no other requirement in order to build them except researching a tech.. I really wasn't trying to say that every wonder needed several qualifiers, just that I feel it would be best for every wonder to have at last one qualifier. Doing this would make them feel more like "Wonders of the World" and not wonders of the world.

 

[wobuffet]

I realize I'm a bit of a party pooper here, but do we really need new Wonders? Spamming wonders already makes the game much easier for human players, I feel; once you get a tech lead, you can just snowball away with all the Wonder-specific bonuses.

I, for one, have rarely had a game where I'm not far and away the "Most Wonderful" Civ in existence.

That said, a lot of these ideas look like fun. In any case, I'm getting a bit off-topic here and will probably post in the Reserach thread.

edit: What would you guys think of a cap of, say, 4 World/Great Wonders per City? (not counting National Wonders, say.)