New Wonders!

[Ahriman]

Apostolic Palace as a national wonder that requires a temple in every city, and gives +50% faith production in that city?

 

[Zaldron]

Apostolic Palace as a national wonder that requires a temple in every city, and gives +50% faith production in that city?

I like this and it does seem flavorful. It could even add a small fixed amount (4-6) since base faith values are already small.

 

[Nomair]

Banaue Rice Terraces

• Requires: Engineering
• Cost: 250
• +1
• +5
• +1 Great Engineer Point
• +1 from all hill tiles worked by this city. City must be built within two tiles of a mountain.
• Historical Importance: One of the oldest known form of mass agricultural practices in the world.
• Quote: “When I see a slippery slope, my instinct is to build a terrace.” –John McCarthy

Burj al-Arab

• Requires: Ecology
• Cost: 1250
• +3
• +10
• +2 Great Merchant Point
• Coastal Cities produce +25% . City must be on the coast.
• Historical Importance: Symbol of Middle East's wealth and luxury. Also shows the rising tourism industry of Dubai and the surrounding nations.
• Quote: “Thought is the wind, knowledge the sail, and mankind the vessel.”
  –August Hare

Large Hadron Collider

• Requires: Particle Physics
• Cost: 1400
• +2 Great Scientist Point
• Gain a 100% bonus in the the city where the wonder was built.
• Historical Importance: Use to study the history of the universe; getting more knowledge of how the universe was created and how it could possibly end.
• Quote: “There is not a particle of life which does not bear poetry within it.”
  –Gustave Flaubert

Panama Canal

• Requires: Combustion
• Cost: 1250
• +5
• +1 Great Merchant Point
• +1 and +1 for each River tile. Double if the tile is a marsh or flood plains. City must be next to a River.
• Historical Importance: Important sea route for international trade.
• Quote: “All the performances of human art, at which we look with praise or wonder, are instances of the resistless force of perseverance; it is by this that the quarry becomes a pyramid, and that distant countries are united with canals.”
  –Samuel Johnson

Parthenon

• Requires: Philosophy
• Cost: 275
• +1
• +5
• +1 Great Artist Point
• Great Generals provide +15% more combat strength bonus to friendly units within 2 tiles from it.
• Historical Importance: Built during the Golden Age of Athens for the Greek Goddess of wisdom and strategic warfare: Athena. It was during this time that Athens was the superior military and trading power in the Mediterranean.
• Quote: “War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it.”
  –Desiderius Erasmus

Potala Palace

• Requires: Theology
• Cost: 300
• +5
• +4
• +1 Great Artist Point
• 3 and 2 from each mountain tile within the territory. City must be built within 2 tiles of a Mountain.
• Historical Importance: Palace of the Dalai Lama. The spread of Buddhism in Tibet and Central Asia. Built in Lhasa: one of the highest cities in the world.
• Quote: “The road to excess leads to the palace of wisdom… for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough.”
  –William Blake

Three Gorges Dam

• Requires: Robotics
• Cost: 1300
• +1 Great Engineer Point
• +10% in all cities next to rivers and no Aluminum requirement for Hydro Plants. City must be built next to a river.
• Historical Importance: Largest Hydroelectric Dam in the world. Provide power
• Quote: “The people turn to a benevolent ruler as water flows downwards and as wild beasts fly to the wilderness.”
  –Mencius

Below are some of the pics that I customized to make them more like paintings.

 

[GenjiKhan]

Potala Palace

• Requires: Theology
• Cost: 300
• +3 Culture
• +4 Faith
• +1 Great Artist Point
• 4 Faith from each mountain tile within the territory. City must be built within 2 tiles of a Mountain.
• Historical Importance: Palace of the Dalai Lama. The spread of Buddhism in Tibet and Central Asia. Built in Lhasa: one of the highest cities in the world.
• Quote: “The road to excess leads to the palace of wisdom… for we never know what is enough until we know what is more than enough.”
  –William Blake

This bonus seems just too big . I'd decrease the faith earned to +2 and make something similar to Petra(which is making Mountains workable tiles,that provide +2 ,+1 and +1 when worked);

 

[Ahriman]

The thing with Petra is that it works on desert hills, which can have a yield and an improvement. Mountains can't.

 

[Zaldron]

Banaue Rice Terraces

• Requires: Engineering
• Cost: 250
• +1
• +5
• +1 Great Engineer Point
• +2 from hill tiles. City must be built within two tiles of a mountain.
• Historical Importance: One of the oldest known form of mass agricultural practices in the world.
• Quote: “When I see a slippery slope, my instinct is to build a terrace.” –John McCarthy

Below are some of the pics that I customized to make them more like paintings.

This just seems so powerful that a mountain near your capital is an "I win" button. Almost as much food as HG just by default, and every hill mine you work has its built-in downside negated. +1 or +2 food on irrigated/farmed hills might be fine.

 

[Thalassicus]

I am now creating the poll for us to decide on the top wonder ideas.

This bonus seems just too big .

This just seems so powerful that a mountain near your capital is an "I win" button.

The criteria for selecting a wonder are:

• Historical importance.
• Can play a vital role ingame.

Balance is not important at this early stage; we can think about specific numbers after we decide what wonders sound interesting.

 

[Thalassicus]

Edit: moved the list to the original post.

 

[albie_123]

Sounds incredible, but, I noticed one distinct feature missing: No wonder that creates a tradable resource?

 

[Ahriman]

Apostolic palace is missing from that list. [National wonder, requires temple in every city, gives faith boost.]

 

[Thalassicus]

@albie_123
We could change the effect of one of the suggestions to give resources.

@Ahriman
Thank you, I've now added it.

 

[albie_123]

If we're going with precendent, it would be Hollywood - but, there are many other wonders that it would fit.

I think not having such a unique benefit on a wonder is a lost opportunity, especially when some suggestions are limited to the usual '+Yield from certain buildings', 'Bonus flat yield' and 'Military promotion'.

 

[Thalassicus]

If we add an infrastructure wonder like the Panama Canal, access to that infrastructure would allow faster flow of luxury goods. It could create some kind of "Canal Pass" resource. The leader then trades these rights to other nations for gold or resources.

 

[albie_123]

Awesome.

No matter what wonders end up in game, we've got great ones to choose from. I especially like the abstract projects (Horde, Revolution, Cold War, etc.), they sound really fun!

 

[Ahriman]

Another suggestion from the other thread:
League of Nations. Has a diplomatic bonus, either to open borders/dofs/RAs or to city states.

 

[Calavente]

okay. Here comes antoher lurker comment.

someone (I'll not call names here) said that "the tech leader SHOULD get a shot at all wonders".

well I disagree.

The issue is that in RL, the tech lead was only... few techs; there is an enormus catchup/tech diffusion, especially after the industrial era (and after each wars... the main advantage of tech was not the tech lead.. it was the ability to produce the product of the tech: indians adapted very quickly their hunter/archer into horsearcher once european came with horses and rifles.. however they could produce those guns so they stagnated at horsearcher with few rifles .. and they couldn't build cannons nor armies because their society didn't enable armies. in ciV words : they lost due to lack of social policy, and production output, not tech difference)

Afghans didn't need to have even an industrial tech level to be able to get to tank... they only need to get the funds to BUY rockets from friendly states
Europe/USA sell second-hand jet fighter to any third world state that don't have the ability to build them (ergo they don't have the tech).

further, due to Patents organisations and treaties, most tech lead have only a duration of 1-2 years.
everybody publishes, every-body KNOWS what the other are doing and how they are doing it. And last : everybody sells the things in the other countries !!! so the other get the tech (at least using reverse engineering ==> look at Japan, china, India... they had a huge tech lag at the begining of the XX and now they are scientific superpower).

Nobody can get the tech lead you are envisonning as in "the tech lead that allows you to grab all wonders".

no RL state has all world wonders of an era.
It is not possible.

Exemples in RL

Spoiler :

tech leader in the XX° century was roughly USA and Japan.
well, many of the proposed wonders are not from here. (indeed, we/you want to propose wonders from all the world !!==> ergo not from same civ)

(the Hadron collider is not in the USA nor JAPAN ; the biggest tower is in ... Saudi Arabia...not a tech leader at all ; just very rich)


World wonders... are of the WORLD. ergo, they come from a variety of countries/culture. Why would a tech leader be able to build all of them ?


why do you think that CN tower is in Canada, the three gorge dam is in China, the stadium is in south america, channel tunnel in europe, that big bridge in Japan, Panama in mexico.

While peru had nazca llines, they didn't have michaelangelo's St Peter basilica, and europe didn't have the huges buddhas....etc


In fact, world wonder are a huge investment, you can't build them all ; people resent using their monies for that ; you can't maintain them all, so you have to select ; further, many wonders are build upon necessities and become wolrd wonder after the fact.

the US won't build a three gorge dam because the WWF will lobby against it, nor the biggest tower ever as there is enough space around there ; the US won't build the Channel tunnel as there is no interest for such expensive project (no "rich"-island separated by friendly "rich" continent) ....Etc


If Cristo redemptor was not build on a mountain facing the sea... it would just be another stupid big statue and not a world wonder.

One wouldn't build a big Christian Wonder AND a big Muslim wonder AND a big Buddhism wonder.... you need state religion mostly to support the cost of a wonder... so a christian state religion state (renaissance france / vatican) wouldn't build the Ankor vhat or the big buddhas.

The golden Gate wouldn't have been built in london.

Once you build the Forbidden city, you won't build Versailles.

here comes stupid "propositions"

Spoiler :

1)
maybe wonders being only buildable by sacrificing a GP would limit the wonder race effect...
and allow the spread of wonders between civs.

increase by 2 the number of GP produced per game... and you can use half of them to build wonders and other half for what they are usually meant to, or all for wonders or all for the other things:

GS or GM build the Hadron collider...
GA or Gprophet build Hagia Sofia,
GAdmiral or GGeneral build... CIA ? KRemlin ?
CN Tower can be built by sacrificing either GS or GArtiste
...Etc
GE or GM can build channel tunnel
GM or Gartiste build the stadium (for the money or for the art/sport)


2) make some wonders exclusive per era and/or domain :
-having a military boosting wonder of classical era will reduce your possibility to build other military boosting wonders....
-having Haggia Sofia will prevent you /render harder to get the big buddhas

... it would represent
"why does the governement want to build another "Religious Wonder"... don't we already have one ? we should use that money for improving our happiness".


3) wonders increase the "% of bandit/resistants : "WE SPEND TOO MUCH MONEY ON USELESS THINGS".

4) wonders increases (by a %) the maintenance costs in the empire (are there some?)
==> the more wonders, the greater the money drain.

5) more contrain on wonders :
-some depend on civic
-some need a given religion
-some need a given terrain (only one or maximum two) : river for the dam
-some need

 

[mystikx21]

Having a gp restriction on world wonders might be more realistic, but for the same reason other restrictions don't work well, I don't think it would play well with the AI. It works like an "i win button". Realism must be sacrificed to gameplay at times.

There are already mechanics to slow wonder hogging. Building wonders does not ensure a tech lead throughout the game. A tech can be beelined to get a wonder instead of something else (units for instance). You can invade a potentially weaker military rival that has focused on wonders. And available Production might be low versus a rival.

My own preference would be to make the tech race more competitive than to place more restrictions on wonders. That has multiple benefits aside from wonder distribution.

 

[Ahriman]

someone (I'll not call names here) said that "the tech leader SHOULD get a shot at all wonders".

The issue is that in RL, the tech lead was only... few techs

I won't speak for others, but my actual view was: if you have a dramatic lead in techs, you should be able to get most of them.

If you're only 2-4 techs ahead, that isn't a dramatic tech lead in my view, and the "width" of the tech tree means that you won't be the first to every tech. But if I beat everyone else to some wonder-tech by 15+ turns, then yeah, I should get that wonder if I want it, unless someone else pops it with a great engineer.

In RL, the tech differential has at times been very wide. post-Renaissance Europe was way ahead of the rest of the world. Hence things like the conquistador successes, the north american Indian wars, the zulu war, the various wars against China, gunboat diplomacy, etc.

Its true that in RL we rarely had superpowers that were dominant/tech leaders for many centuries, but Civ isn't real life, and sometimes this can happen in-game.

I don't think that restricting wonders more would be fun or good for gameplay, and I don't think there is a problem with some civs choosing to focus more on wonders as opposed to on military or culture or expansion.

My own preference would be to make the tech race more competitive

I think I would want to make AIs more competitive.
But:
a) this doesn't mean doing things just through tech. If a tech lead doesn't pay off, that stinks. Its weird to have catchup triggers just focusing on one mechanic.
b) Catcuhp mechanics don't necessarily make the game more competitive. We don't get a competitive outcome by making it impossible for anyone to get ahead. We make the game competitive by making it possible *for AI players to be able to generate runaway growth".
The most fun games that are actually challenging in the late-game are not those where every power survives and where you expect everyone to still be powerful. The most fun games are those were the human expands and does well, but so do a couple of other AI superpowers. So you aren't competing against every other player, you're competing against the other breakaway superpowers.

In my view, allowing AI superpowers to emerge is the only way to make the late-game competitive. Trying to "balance" things with too many rubberband catchup mechanics just serves to undermine this, because they make it harder and harder for AIs that are ahead to pull away from their neighbors.

This is an issue that has been discussed here before many months ago.

 

[Calavente]

I disagree.
those tech lead you cited worked only because there was no commerce : only conquest, razing and pillage, or send YOUR colonies.
as soon as you commerce with the locals, the tech lead is shortened a lot.

(why would you tech to learn bronze working when you commerce with a guy that can sell you guns ? you'll try to spy on him to get and produce guns instead of going the long way of re-discovering every-thing that the other knows and do not value as for him it is "low-tech".)

That's why nowadays the tech lead is very short, even if some countries invest a lot in research and other do not. It is due to commerce.

The investement in tech research is done to get an improvement of commerce capability ; to compensate for lack of natural ressources but not because you'll get better products than the others.

and technically the incas were early warrior /archery tech and they lost to knight-era units... and more so to diseases. However if there ever were to be commerce (look at mexico) the tech lead would decrease a lot.

The Zulu wars were what : spearmen against rifles and machine guns ? but the UK did not commerce with the zulus...
Japan got the european out even when they were at knight level when european was at muskets.

A huge tech lead is only possible in isolation :
european countries versus american tribes and african tribes.

Once you commerce, you give away techs... and this, very quickly (the least of it because they can hire your own engineers !!!! )


And I again disagree. What is fun is when a former unnoticed ennemy becomes a superpower (low power whole game but end of game finds a way to become leader in culture ... or like israel, they attract lots of scientists and gaiend a huge boost in science capability (from almost 0) in the last 50+ years. Or like Soudia arabia : got 0 influence/power in the mid XIX.... and now they are some of the richest countries and can BUY our best tech, maybe even better than what is available to our own governement.



Maybe wonders could be buildable by every civ at peace with the one discovering the tech (or open borders or trading with) (even if borders/trade are closed after that) but getting the tech involves a huge cost reduction (like 50% cost reduction) (or you get +10-20% cost increase per tech you lack)?
+ GE can only boost a wonder construction if you have the tech ?

 

[mystikx21]

I think I would want to make AIs more competitive.
But:
a) this doesn't mean doing things just through tech. If a tech lead doesn't pay off, that stinks. Its weird to have catchup triggers just focusing on one mechanic.
b) Catcuhp mechanics don't necessarily make the game more competitive. We don't get a competitive outcome by making it impossible for anyone to get ahead. We make the game competitive by making it possible *for AI players to be able to generate runaway growth".

The most fun games that are actually challenging in the late-game are not those where every power survives and where you expect everyone to still be powerful. The most fun games are those were the human expands and does well, but so do a couple of other AI superpowers. So you aren't competing against every other player, you're competing against the other breakaway superpowers.

In my view, allowing AI superpowers to emerge is the only way to make the late-game competitive. Trying to "balance" things with too many rubberband catchup mechanics just serves to undermine this, because they make it harder and harder for AIs that are ahead to pull away from their neighbors.

This is an issue that has been discussed here before many months ago.

Catchup mechanics I agree should not be excessive. And I would agree that making the AI run a more efficient economy or be more productive, or if possible attack and defend with at least a minimum level of competence, we would find some superpowers emerge or at least have to fight some major powers off once in a while.

The focus with the tech race is that most of the time I can find myself at the 15+ techs ahead level by the late-middle game and some amount of catchup growth is reasonable to make the game more competitive on that front, and by extension, helping with the AI having more economic power, chances at a few wonders, better defence, etc. If we could make the AI be in that spot or try to be, it would be more interesting, yes. (one option is simply to move up a difficulty of course. Which I did in GK. VEM was harder).