New Wonders!

[sukritact]

disagree.
those tech lead you cited worked only because there was no commerce : only conquest, razing and pillage.
as soon as you commerce, the tech lead is shortened a lot.
That's why nowadays the tech lead is very short, even if some countries invest a lot in research and other do not. It is due to commerce.

Is that really true. Take Ethiopia for example: during the Abyssinian crisis, Ethiopia did have guns (although most were from the 19th century) but the majority of the new recruits were armed with spears or bows (the actual army did have more advanced weapons but they were still outmatched). And they were attacked by what their soldiers described as "terrible rain that burned and killed" as they didn't know of poison gas at the time.

Ethiopia was led by Haile Selassie at the time and the country had a great amount of exposure with Europe (look at his leader-screen for an example).

In any case the game progresses through all of history, not just the modern era.

 

[Dunkah]

Since we are reitterating our beliefs here.

I agree with the fact Wonders should be limited by either Great Persons expenditures or by increased resource needs so that no one is allowed to get all of them. I would even be up for a hard limit or 1 or 2 per city. Like it was in Civ IV. A mix of all of those would be great, a special resource for this wonder, a Great Person for that, an active relegion with so many followers for another etc.

If this results in people not beelining to a particular tech just to get that wonder than I am fine with that. I think that beelining is an exploit anyway.

I agree that there should not be too many catch up mechanics but I do like the Tech Diffusion method of, the greater the number of Civs have a tech the cheaper it gets for others.

I would like to see "Tech Wonders" where a particular Tech lies off the path on a Dead end and the first Civ to get it gets the benefits and shuts it off for others. Techs like Thumb/Bow Rings or Stealth, or certain Wonders like Colossus or Pyramids, or even special units like Bismark, or USS Ronald Regan...

 

[mystikx21]

Since we are reitterating our beliefs here.

I agree with the fact Wonders should be limited by either Great Persons expenditures or by increased resource needs so that no one is allowed to get all of them. I would even be up for a hard limit or 1 or 2 per city. Like it was in Civ IV. A mix of all of those would be great, a special resource for this wonder, a Great Person for that, an active relegion with so many followers for another etc.

I would like to see "Tech Wonders" where a particular Tech lies off the path on a Dead end and the first Civ to get it gets the benefits and shuts it off for others.

Civ4 only had a hard cap in cities for national wonders, not world wonders (I routinely constructed a lot of wonders in a national park/national epic combo city with lots of trees as a GP factory in BTS). Civ4 also had a different resource/trade mechanic which impacts how a wonder production bonus went into play. Copper anywhere was effectively copper everywhere for example. Since Civ5 doesn't have those underlying mechanics for AI handling of resources, specific and special production bonuses or resource limitations do not make as much sense. (I also wouldn't call it a "fact". It's an attractive proposal that you like and others do not).

There are several of the existing wonders that already include a one-shot benefit which locks out other players, so that concept is sound. It might be interesting to see a tech do that... but that's sort of the impact of the tech win, and I would think this would exacerbate the tech leader problem, essentially transferring the "wonder hording problem" to the "tech hording problem".

 

[Calavente]

Is that really true. Take Ethiopia for example: during the Abyssinian crisis, Ethiopia did have guns (although most were from the 19th century) but the majority of the new recruits were armed with spears or bows (the actual army did have more advanced weapons but they were still outmatched). And they were attacked by what their soldiers described as "terrible rain that burned and killed" as they didn't know of poison gas at the time.

Ethiopia was led by Haile Selassie at the time and the country had a great amount of exposure with Europe (look at his leader-screen for an example).

In any case the game progresses through all of history, not just the modern era.

holy wikipedia says that :

"Between 5-7 December, for reasons which have never been clearly determined, there was a skirmish between the garrison of Somalis who were in Italian service and a force of armed Ethiopians. According to the Italians, the Ethiopians attacked the Somalis with rifle and machine gun fire.[5] According to the Ethiopians, the Italians attacked them, supported by two tanks and three aircraft.[6] In the end, approximately 107 Ethiopians[nb 1] and 50 Italians and Somalis were killed.[nb 2] Neither side did anything to avoid confrontation; the Ethiopians repeatedly menaced the Italian garrison with the threat of an armed attack, and the Italians sent two planes over the Ethiopian camp with some machine-gun fire.[9]"

for me, it only means that a low tech low important civ could, by commerce/tech diffusion whatever, field some machine guns and rifles. Okay, it was not tanks and sarin gaz. but it was not Spears and bow either.

it is mostly a "west-europe" have only a 1-2 tech lead (tank, sarin gaz, planes) but have huge production capability.
while ethiopia has a size 4 city in desert/plain : it KNOWS how to build rifles and how to buy machine guns... BUT it can't produces much nor buy much has it has low prod (no manufactures) and low gold (few banks, few commerces, few export companies..)

 

[sukritact]

holy wikipedia says that :

"Between 5-7 December, for reasons which have never been clearly determined, there was a skirmish between the garrison of Somalis who were in Italian service and a force of armed Ethiopians. According to the Italians, the Ethiopians attacked the Somalis with rifle and machine gun fire.[5] According to the Ethiopians, the Italians attacked them, supported by two tanks and three aircraft.[6] In the end, approximately 107 Ethiopians[nb 1] and 50 Italians and Somalis were killed.[nb 2] Neither side did anything to avoid confrontation; the Ethiopians repeatedly menaced the Italian garrison with the threat of an armed attack, and the Italians sent two planes over the Ethiopian camp with some machine-gun fire.[9]"

for me, it only means that a low tech low important civ could, by commerce/tech diffusion whatever, field some machine guns and rifles. Okay, it was not tanks and sarin gaz. but it was not Spears and bow either.

Also Wikipedia:

With an attack appearing inevitable, Emperor Haile Selassie ordered a general mobilization of the Army of the Ethiopian Empire. His new recruits consisted of around 500,000 men, many of whom were armed with nothing more than spears and bows. Other soldiers carried more modern weapons, including rifles, but many of these were from before 1900 and were badly outdated.[nb 2]

Also according to wikipedia, when hostilities broke out they estimated that there were 350,000–760,000 men in the army. I would like to stress that they had SOME modern weaponry, but the majority of what they had was antiquated. Think of it more like, they were way behind in tech and were lucky enough to befriend a more advanced militaristic city-state.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah. Having a few guns doesn't mean that you are fielding a rifleman unit, with modern weapons, supplies, training and doctrine.

A tech that enables a unit is a lot more than being able to acquire their weapons; that tech also represents the ability to equip and resupply those units en masse, and includes all the associated command & control technologies.

 

[mystikx21]

Yeah. Having a few guns doesn't mean that you are fielding a rifleman unit, with modern weapons, supplies, training and doctrine.

A tech that enables a unit is a lot more than being able to acquire their weapons; that tech also represents the ability to equip and resupply those units en masse, and includes all the associated command & control technologies.

Could think of it as the distinction of gifting/receiving units versus producing them in those logistical gaps.

 

[rhammer640]

what about an option for the AI to buy units that the most advanced civ has but not be able to built them. Maybe at a higher cost. This would represent the ability for civs to buy tech from other civs even if they cant build it themselves. This would also help the AI defend itself better against a human who is ahead in tech.

 

[Zaldron]

Since we are reitterating our beliefs here.

I agree with the fact Wonders should be limited by either Great Persons expenditures or by increased resource needs so that no one is allowed to get all of them. I would even be up for a hard limit or 1 or 2 per city. Like it was in Civ IV. A mix of all of those would be great, a special resource for this wonder, a Great Person for that, an active relegion with so many followers for another etc.

If this results in people not beelining to a particular tech just to get that wonder than I am fine with that. I think that beelining is an exploit anyway.

I agree that there should not be too many catch up mechanics but I do like the Tech Diffusion method of, the greater the number of Civs have a tech the cheaper it gets for others.

I would like to see "Tech Wonders" where a particular Tech lies off the path on a Dead end and the first Civ to get it gets the benefits and shuts it off for others. Techs like Thumb/Bow Rings or Stealth, or certain Wonders like Colossus or Pyramids, or even special units like Bismark, or USS Ronald Regan...

Reiteration follows.

Hard limits on wonders seems completely un-civ-like. Unlimited wonders per city has been a mechanic of Civ since at least Civ3 (I didn't play 1&2). In Civ4 there was a limit of two national wonders in a city, but that's also counter to the design of NWs in civ5 tot help smaller tall empires improve the city where it's most useful (most of the time your capital). If wonder hoarding is a problem (and I'm *still* not convinced after seeing Egypt and Siam crank them out) then we simply need to increase the cost. If I build 3 early wonders and Monty (name your warmonger here) next to me spends three wonders worth of production on swordsmen and cats, I'm toast. It seems like a totally self-regulating system here.

If I'm 5 techs ahead of everyone else, then *that's* the problem that needs to be addressed, not my ability to snag every wonder from that point on.

Beelining is a completely valid strategy when you consider that not only do you give up earlier access to 2-4 earlier techs instead of the higher level tech but you just made the higher level tech easier to research for everyone else!

I don't have a strong opinion on wonder techs without playing it out.

 

[Thalassicus]

The issue is that in RL, the tech lead was only... few techs; there is an enormous catchup/tech diffusion, especially after the industrial era.
As soon as you commerce, the tech lead is shortened a lot.
That's why nowadays the tech lead is very short, even if some countries invest a lot in research and other do not. It is due to commerce.

This may be true among developed nations, but not in most of the world, since only 1 in 6 people live in developed countries. Consider something as basic as climate: ordinary computers do not work in hot, dusty, or humid environments, and most less-developed countries combine all three. Even crops we take for granted like wheat, rice, and corn don't grow well in many regions of the world. One of the biggest crops in developing nations is cassava, feeding half a billion people.

Commerce helps - but it's not enough on its own.

Two big things which help tech progress in most of the world are actually 1) general education for women and 2) good childhood nutrition. Lower infant mortality helps reduce the need for large families, which is safer for both children and mothers, and good nutrition is necessary for healthy young minds to come up with brilliant new ideas. Allowing both genders access to the workforce increases economic capacity, and raises the chance of good business ideas, since more people can work on the problems a country faces.

 

[123joanna321]

I have a question: has anybody considered using the various transportaion related wonders (ie the Chunnel, Panama Canal) to act as a transportation link between two tiles? ie let ground units travel from land, across a coast tile and onto the next land tile for the Chunnel, or naval units cross a land tile for the Canal in a similar way? I think this would not only represent the actual wonders better, but make them much more unique.

 

[Calavente]

@Thal:
Out topic:
What you are describing is not them not having the tech, it's them having low prod, low food, low commerce low health cities.
as you said, if you were to change those un-educated women, un-fed child, they'll quickly get back to tech level (not in robotics and computer science but all industrial era ...certainly)
(and look at some other countries : India, China, Brasil.... they solved some issues and lo. now they are on par with the developped countries in almost all techs)

The issue with civ is trying to mimick the historical development as a continuous progress while history was in fact full of long slow progress, stagnation, recess, sharp progress, recess, stagnation, slow progress. (China went to top of techs around 0AD ; they progressed/improved their tech a bit in the following millenia but only incrementally. The Roman empire was followed by the dark ages... during which most knowledge was LOST. the late-empire Roman legions would have kicked ass to any knight kingdom... until maybe the full plate armor was invented, or maybe the pike-square).

the difference between Babylonian heavy cavalry, Greek Heavy cavalry, Cataphracts, Early Dark age knights, templars... etc was minute until the invention of the full plate armor.. and maybe of the gendarme

Caesar and Alexanders' (and Sun tsu) strategy books insipred even Napoleon... nothing was invented.

until the machinegun, the mongol horse archers would have razed anybody (sure, some heavy guns and rifles would have render their victory more costly, but they would still have won) see the power of lancers in the napoleonic era, and imagine lancers that starts shooting arrows (napoleonic cavalry had only 2/4 pistol shots... not comparable to 20+ arrows.

And this until the scientific method and the patent system. After that time, there was a progress in science that can be almost described as the one present in civ.

but it would be hard to code, so why not, the current way is the least bad one

 

[mystikx21]

I don't think I would describe any of those countries as technically equal. I would describe them as in catchup growth. Even China has a long way to go before it is actually on equal terms or better. Consider their carrier as but one example. Education system in rural China is still difficult, health care delivery is uneven, reliance on "alternative medicine" still high, etc.

The problem isn't that science or knowledge regressed historically. It is that the infrastructure of the state changed or collapsed, and that state infrastructure was necessary for distributing information in schools and for providing avenues of trade and security necessary to make education useful versus basic agrarian-feudal societies. Consider all the basic innovations for sanitation and homes that the Romans had brought in Britain alone, and why else would people abandon such things? That mechanic can be modeled in some way through high deficits in gold or happiness (poorly). I don't think it would be very fun to see it as anything other than an effect of falling behind technology whilst rivals advance.

Patents and printing saved a good deal of reinventing the wheel yes, but couldn't these be thought of as universities and labs instead of mere libraries?

 

[mitsho]

Regarding National Wonders, Thal, you didn't include the following propositions (by me) in the first post. I do think World Exhibition and Olympic Games deserve to be in (unless you want to create regular events later on?).

Spoiler :

World Exhibitions btw. would be another one of those national Projects that give you a bonus as long as no other civ has built it. The system would be simple

• Bonus stays as long as no other civ builds it, mostly local city yields boosted.
• Production cost grow every time you build it. I.e. the first one is 200 , each additional is 50 more. This count is per civ which means that a lagging civ can build them much cheaper.
• The proposed list so far goes World Exhibition (culture), Worlds Tallest Building (gold), Worlds Longest Bridge (production), Olympic Games (city states like you), Largest Prayer Site (faith), World Cup (happy).

 

[Seek]

I have an out-of-the-box idea which may or may not be desirable (or even feasible to implement) but it could be interesting. Reading over the revised OP and looking at a number of National Projects/concepts that are outside the usual "wonder" category and reading the debate about WWs and whether they should be more available to all empires sparked this idea: What if Great Engineers no longer had the "insta-build" ability for buildings and instead were able to complete (instantly or not) Great Projects, such as the Chunnel, Panama Canal, Banaue Rice Terraces, etc. Essentially, the non-buildings that are now considered wonders. I think we could come up with enough of them throughout the ages to make this an interesting alternative, and preventing insta-builds could allow WWs to be more spread out among civilizations. The idea isn't fully fleshed out of course, but I was wondering if you all think this has some merit.

 

[Ahriman]

It's certainly an interesting idea.
But I don't think we need a whole bunch of new projects. There are already Wonders that represent basically the whole thing. It would feel very strange to have a whole bunch of wonders that are just like other wonders except that you can only build them with a great engineer.

The hammer boost for the current great engineer works fine; it's fun, it's strategic, it's useful. It isn't broken.

In general I am worried about adding too many new wonders, particularly in the early and midgame where there are already a lot of Wonders out there. Adding new wonders needs to carefully consider the existing tech tree and balance - particularly once the Vanguard units are back in. I don't think the tech tree was ever adjusted sufficiently to take account of the vanguards; many economic techs were over-buffed relative to the military techs, because those economic techs now gave both economy benefits *and* a military unit.

I hope that 3 new wonders really is the limit, and that they're mostly added towards the late-game, where there are fewer current wonders.

*edit*
I guess my point is; in my view GEM should be mostly a balance mod, rather than an "add new stuff" mod. If people want to make extra modmods with tons of extra wonders and other content that's cool, but I worry that they'd clutter the core experience.

 

[headcase]

Sounds like the Ancient Olympics would be a good wonder.

In later years, the Modern Olympics can show up as a random event:
The city of [city] has won their bid to host the Olympic Games
a) Spare no expense to make these a memorable games - minus gold, plus lots of culture (up front, not per turn), possibly plus influence with all CSs.
b) Enjoy the economic revenue from domestic and foreign visitors - plus gold
c) Let the mayor handle handle this - plus small amount of culture up front

I agree with above that GEM should be fairly close to vanilla. When it comes to wonders though, I personally like having a lot of them so that even civs that are behind can hope to build a few. An "official" GEM modmod with these extra wonders would work too, however.

 

[Thalassicus]

@123john321
I wish we could do that, but most controls for unit movement and combat are in the game core only Firaxis has access to.

@Calavente
Basically I'm discussing three things:

• 1 out of 6 humans live in developed countries, so the Civ model of tech runaways is reasonably accurate.
• Development relies on many complex factors. Even if we improve nutrition and education, there's other challenges like climate and infrastructure.
• Development requires more than just catching up. 1980's US technology like computers or wheat-farming techniques generally don't work in tropical climates.

 

[headcase]

• 1 out of 6 humans live in developed countries, so the Civ model of tech runaways is reasonably accurate.
• Development requires more than just catching up. 1980's US technology like computers or wheat-farming techniques generally don't work in tropical climates.

For gameplay reasons, those civs that are behind should have a hope of winning. The Cultural Victory is good for that. VEM has already improved on that a bit compared to vanilla by making SPs a little more frequent, therefore making culture superiority a little more powerful. In my eyes, the more powerful SPs are, the better (as long as tech progress still has the edge in some areas).

 

[Thalassicus]

@mitsho
Could you provide some more details about those proposals? It took three hours of historical research to fill in some blanks for the world wonder suggestions, and I don't have enough free time to do that for the projects too.