News: Ayaan Hirsi Ali is NOT Dutch - Minister (and partymember) states.

[Rik Meleet]

I suppose with "Dutch East Indies" you mean "Indonesian Archipel" ?

Don't know. About 0,5% to 1% - at maximum.

 

[7ronin]

Thanks. The media here makes it sound like it's much more and that there is an immigrant problem.

 

[The Last Conformist]

The Netherlands do have alot of immigrants, but most don't come from Indonesia.

 

[Rik Meleet]

About 22.000 immigrants came to The Netherlands in the first 3 months of 2006. 5.000 of them were "returning Dutch". 2nd largest group is Polish citizens, about 1.800 in total. It's blown far out of proportions.

In the same months 29.000 Dutch emigrated.

Source (Dutch language) of the Central Bureau of statistics.

BTW: the Indonesians came here in the 1940's and 1950's

 

[The Last Conformist]

NL has net emigration? I'm surprised.

As a comparison, Sweden had about 25k immigrants and 9k emigrants during the same period.

 

[Zwelgje]

After seeing last nights parliamentary debate on the case; I lean more and more to Verdonk sacrificing Hirsi Ali (who did an illegal act by lying) for her personal gains in the party-leadership internal election and that it hugely backfired.

Indeed I had already feared that this is what Verdonk was doing but after the debate yesterday (sitting at the TV from 20.15 to 2.30... ) I am sure about Verdonk's motives. I'm sure that Verdonk has disqualified herself for life for any important position after this government period.

What makes Ms. Ayaan Hirsi Ali think that she will be able to come to the United States? Having committed illegal acts to stay in the Netherlands it's not likely that she will even be eligible for a 90 day tourist visa much less an extended stay.

There has already been contacts between dutch government and the US ambassador and her future employer and apparently she will at least get a fugitive passport which will grant her access to the US with a visum.

@Rik: What percentage of Dutch citizens are from the former Dutch East Indies?

I believe it's about 2% but there are lots of marriages between people from indonesian origin and whites so it's really hard to say. I think you won't find many dutch people that regard people with Indonesian roots as being foreigners, Indonesia was a dutch colony for centuries.

 

[Zwelgje]

NL has net emigration? I'm surprised.

As a comparison, Sweden had about 25k immigrants and 9k emigrants during the same period.

We had net immigration a few years ago. Then came Verdonk with her more strict laws. It's almost impossible for people to get into the Netherlands now and the dutch government clearly has brought that point across well. You have to be threatened personally to be a proper fugitive. So gay men are being send back to Iran, all people are being send back to Somalia etc. A while ago there was in the media a report of sent back Somalians who were killed... Also you have to do a test before you're being let into the country, you gotta know all kinds of trivial facts on dutch society and you gotta have some basic knowledge on dutch language I believe.

 

[Hakim]

Recalling asylum rights or residence permit because of lying in the process is fair enough, but recalling citizenship ? Citizenship with "memory" = 2 kinds of citizenship, A-grade and B-grade citizenship IMO.

 

[Zwelgje]

Nothing to do with A or B grade. The law is just that when you've lied during the process of getting citizenship you're regarded as never have been a citizen. So citizenship isn't recalled but it's denied that you ever were a citizen because you got citizenship on false grounds.

 

[7ronin]

Also you have to do a test before you're being let into the country, you gotta know all kinds of trivial facts on dutch society and you gotta have some basic knowledge on dutch language I believe.

The tests made the news here. We have a test for citizenship but nothing for people who have been granted permanent entry. You only have to demonstate language proficiency if you wish to become a citizen. Our large non-English speaking illegal immigrant population is currently a big issue. A lot of people here are holding up the Netherlands as a model for emulation.

 

[Hakim]

Nothing to do with A or B grade. The law is just that when you've lied during the process of getting citizenship you're regarded as never have been a citizen. So citizenship isn't recalled but it's denied that you ever were a citizen because you got citizenship on false grounds.

I know that's how they sell it but it's just playing with words IMO. It can only happen to some citizens.

 

[luiz]

Way to generalize here luiz. That really helps the situation when you lump Muslims together as radicals.

I specifically mentioned really moderate islamic sects, just to avoid generalising. But yes, there are some problems with the most common versions of Islam followed in the Islamic world.

 

[luiz]

Even if all of them are true, c) doesn't necessarily follow from a), b), and d).

And it would be very unfair to say that c) is caused only by a), b) and d). I never said that. But those 3 do contribute for c).

 

[luiz]

NL has net emigration? I'm surprised.

This received some coverage in the local media. Apparently the dutch are in search for more living space, since they are immigrating mainly to Canada and Australia(or so I've read).

 

[The Last Conformist]

We had net immigration a few years ago. Then came Verdonk with her more strict laws. It's almost impossible for people to get into the Netherlands now and the dutch government clearly has brought that point across well.

Compared to Sweden, you've got a bit lower immigration and much higher emigration. Unless people are leaving in disgust at Verdonk, I don't think she's a major reason for the difference.

 

[Zwelgje]

Compared to Sweden, you've got a bit lower immigration and much higher emigration. Unless people are leaving in disgust at Verdonk, I don't think she's a major reason for the difference.

Unfortunately I couldn't find numbers over a longer period of time but here we go for the last 5 years:

	Immigration	Emigration	Birth	   Death
2001	133,4	        82,6	        202,6	   140,3
2002	121,3	        96,9	        202,2	   142,4
2003	104,5	        104,8	        200,3	   141,9
2004	94,1	        110,3	        194	   136,6
2005	93,6	        121,1	        187,8	   136,7

These are numbers taken from the website of the dutch statistics agency. All numbers should be multiplied with 1000 of course.

As you can see, the immigration is decreasing and emigration is increasing. The decrease in immigration coincides with Verdonk coming into office. But of course this isn't proof that this is all caused by Verdonk. Although I do feel that birth is influenced by her excessive appearances on TV, massive erectile failures caused by that...

 

[blackheart]

I specifically mentioned really moderate islamic sects, just to avoid generalising. But yes, there are some problems with the most common versions of Islam followed in the Islamic world.

Really?

I do think that Islam needs reform, or rather to follow real moderate sects(like the Suffis). As it stands, even the so-called moderate islamic clerics are often shockingly radical and backwards.

That is still generalizing because you're still calling them backwards.

What's so radical about the moderate sects?

 

[Zwelgje]

This received some coverage in the local media. Apparently the dutch are in search for more living space, since they are immigrating mainly to Canada and Australia(or so I've read).

Many dutch emigrants are going to Canada, the US and Australia to find space, quietness and another (social) climate. Other equally popular countries are Belgium and Germany (mainly only a few kilometers across the border), for tax reasons.
At the moment quite a few dutch farmers are leaving the Netherlands as well because of all the heavy regulation here. They often go to the US or Canada, there was a documentary on TV a while ago about US farmers being really pissed off with dutch farmers as dutch farmers are causing the same trouble there as they're doing here: trying to keep as many cows as possible and producing too much menure they can't get rid of. It was quite funny to see...

 

[luiz]

Really?

Really.

That is still generalizing because you're still calling them backwards.

What's so radical about the moderate sects?

Note my distinction between really moderate(the Suffis, I even gave an exemple) and the so-called moderates(like, say, the mainstream clerics of Malaysia or Indonesia).

My point was that even though those clerics are supposed to be moderate(and are certainly less radical than say the wahabists) they still spouse views that are totally incompatible with modern life, specially wrt to women and the non-Abrahamic faiths. Some time ago I read an interview with one of the highest muslim authorities in Malaysia, supposed to be a moderate. It got me really depressed. It was in a brazilian magazine, namely Veja, and fellow brazilians might know what I'm talking about.