News: BOTM 71 (Noble, Atlantis) - Starts 15 October

[Deckhand]

BOTM 71: Atlantis

Game Details:
Plato is visiting Atlantis when (as he describes) "...there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; ...
wherefore also the ocean at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down."
Surviving the Destruction of Atlantis: One Carrack, One Scout, One Worker, One Settler, Plato (having consumed the last longevity potion), Advanced Technology (Future Tech#1), and map knowledge of nearby city locations destroyed by the Tidal Waves.
Will you settle in the Old World or the New World?
Will you find the rumored New Atlantis on the other side of the earth?

Good luck. And HAVE FUN!

Game settings:
Civilization: Plato of Atlantis
Rivals: 6 AIs
Difficulty: Noble
Map: Hemispheres (note there are AIs on both hemispheres, this isn't an earth map)
Mapsize: Standard
Starting Era: Ancient
Speed: Normal
Options: None (standard defaults, huts exist and events are enabled)
Victory Conditions: All enabled


Plato:
Plato is Philosophical and Creative and starts with Fishing and Hunting. The Philosophical trait increases Great People birth rate 100 percent and doubles production speed of University. Creative gives +2 to each city, as well as +100% production on theatres, coliseums, and libraries.

Unique unithalanx (replaces Axeman) has +100% defense vs chariots.

Unique building: Odeon (replaces Colosseum) Odeon, Unique building for the Atlanteans: +3 , +2 :happiness:, Can turn 2 citizens into artists, +1 :happiness: from Hit Singles, +1 :happiness: per 20% culture rate

Starting screenshot

This is the start of the game (click for a bigger image):




Adventurer Class bonuses:
I choose Both! You start with two Settlers.

Challenger Class Equalizers:
Alas, how sad, the worker was lost in the catastrophe. You don't have a worker at start.[/COLOR]

To Enter the Competition:

This competition will open at 00:01 am on 15 October 2013, server local time (UTC-6:00). From that date and time, you'll be able to get your chosen starting save >>>here<<<.

Submit the save after your victory (or defeat) here, by 15 November 2013.

Software Versions

Windows: This game MUST be played in Beyond the Sword (NOT Warlords or Civ4 vanilla), patched to version 3.19, and with the BUFFY mod version 3.19.003 installed. You can download the BUFFY mod here. Players using Windows Vista are encouraged to read the notes on Vista fixes here.

Macintosh: This game MUST be played in Beyond the Sword (NOT Warlords or Civ4 vanilla), patched to version 3.19, and with the MacBUFFY mod version 3.19.003 installed. You can download the MacBUFFY mod here.

While playing...

Remember - for your entry to be accepted, it MUST be your first attempt to play this game, and you MUST NOT replay any turns. If you make a mistake while playing, you have to live with it, learn from it, and carry on the game without replaying.

We will open 'spoiler' threads during the month for players to discuss what happens in their games.
Do not discuss any details of your game outside those threads.

 

[Deckhand]

Don't you hate situations (e.g. RPGs or RL) that force you to make decisions without understanding the impact of the decision?
"Do you want to use a battle axe or a sword? No, I won't describe how they differ - just pick one."
This is a variant of the last Noble GOTM where you had a settler in the Old World and in the New World. Only this time you only have one settler (unless you take the adventurer save) and you can't settle until turn 3.
Gold or Gems? I added these based on a recent thread which asked this question.

I liked the idea of Atlantis and asking you to choose your continent. But each start needs to be equally viable, so I went thru a lot of maps and did some tinkering to make them nearly equivalent. So, how to choose? I suggest flipping a coin. I will be very disappointed if everyone starts on the same hemisphere. One of the starts had significantly more food, but I just moved the pigs because I think everyone would have chosen them.

Plato is played by Pericles. Pericles has only starred once previously, exactly four years ago in BOTM23.
Greece seems right for Atlantis and Plato as the leader.

Note that you can settle on turn 3. You start with a worker to make up for the delayed start.
Animals start appearing after turn 5. Animals won’t enter your borders.
Barbarians start appearing after turn 35 for Noble normal speed.

As you know, a Carrack is a Caravel that can carry two units (of any type).

Events are enabled because they are Fun

Spoiler :

If you have a Slave Revolt, shout out "Plot Twist"

And this is Noble difficulty and events are usually disabled. BOTM68 had events enabled and there was much discussion about their appropriateness in that pregame thread. I enjoyed the events that hit me and they affected several of my decisions that game.

Victory Conditions: I would like to award both fastest Culture and Espionage (culture) victories. I will examine the culture victory saves and make a judgment call based on number of spies and great artists built. This needs approval from the rest of the staff - I will update this after we have discussed it in the staff forum.

 

[Folket]

That is a lot of food. I would have enjoyed if there was a visible/known difference in the starts. If they are equal it kinda like having no option like your example.

 

[MarkM]

First, thanks for preparing the game, I can see you put effort into it. I'm sure some will love this "plot twist," but I'm kinda with Folket, the choice you make is almost completely arbitrary (the differences boil down to, gold vs gems & one less ocean tile/all three sea resources coastal, vs. 2?) So the choice you make is essentially on a whim, while meanwhile the implications for your game success may turn out to be enormous (not the least, which three AI do you get, is one set a lot easier to dominate than the other?) This could end up to be the ultimate goodie hut, stumbling upon the "right" choice makes a huge but arbitrary impact on the course of your game. The point of gotm is to all play the same start & then compare yourselves to others, no? This seems to short-circuit the point.

Sort of an aside regarding adventurer save: I'm not sure "choosing both" would be an advantage. If I played that, I would pick one side & ferry both settler there.

 

[duckstab]

Looks fun - thanks for putting it together!

I haven't played a BOTM before so I'll give it a go on Adventurer. I'll go ahead and do the coin flip (though I prefer the New World start), but I'll ferry both Settlers to the same side. I just finished a Culture game so I'll probably pick a different victory condition for a change of pace.

Looks like the circumnavigation bonus is a shoe-in, unless you gave the AIs ocean-capable vessels.

 

[High King J.J.]

There's also the third option, SIP
But since we are commanded to HAVE FUN, I won't settle there. Although this is noble, someone who's looking for a challenge might try that?

Looking forward to the rumored New Atlantis somewhere.
Of course it's either not accessible with the carrack or it's guarded by something? A Humbaba or the Guardian of Orion, maybe? Or a horde of ninjas from Kill Bill 1?

I'll have to check which resource gives more when mined, I guess gold gives 1 more than gems because the eastern site has the oceanic fish and the locations are so finely balanced.

Oh, well. With my luck I'll get Monty, Shaka and Toku as close neighbours while the other site has Gandhi, Mansa and someother peaceful leader on the far side of that continent. And barbarians settle new Atlantis first and grow so strong they'll conquer everyone else

Deckhand!

 

[neilmeister]

Love the concept, and having a Carrack from the start is a huge advantage...

I have to disagree with the others, more choice is not less choice. Sid's Sushi anyone?

Normally, I would always pick gold over gems, as it comes on a hill and therefore has some production. But here..... I think I will flip a coin.

 

[Deckhand]

That is a lot of food. I would have enjoyed if there was a visible/known difference in the starts. If they are equal it kinda like having no option like your example.

Agreed.
If Alan hasn't made the Mac saves yet, then I will delete the gems and return the pigs -
provided some of you would take the gold and some the pigs. let me know
If provisions are met, I will make this change on 13Oct assuming Alan is ok with making the Mac saves on 14Oct.

... This could end up to be the ultimate goodie hut, stumbling upon the "right" choice makes a huge but arbitrary impact on the course of your game. The point of gotm is to all play the same start & then compare yourselves to others, no? This seems to short-circuit the point. ...

• So, with this much randomness, including events is just a RNG blip
• Good point of ultimate goodie hut; the two hemispheres are similar but certainly not the same.
• I don't think it will make much difference, it will be interesting if one or the other took all the awards.

Spoiler :

If it matters, you could settle both sites and then decide which continent to expand on, having more information

Looks like the circumnavigation bonus is a shoe-in, unless you gave the AIs ocean-capable vessels.

Leaving your carrack on the coast and having a barb galley get lucky is the biggest risk to circumnavigation.

There's also the third option, SIP

Yup, that is an option. I don't understand, but settling on the fallout is possible.

Looking forward to the rumored New Atlantis somewhere.
Of course it's either not accessible with the carrack or it's guarded by something? A Humbaba or the Guardian of Orion, maybe? Or a horde of ninjas from Kill Bill 1?

No Humbaba nor his ilk or kin this game. But it is my first creation with Barbarians enabled.

And barbarians settle new Atlantis first and grow so strong they'll conquer everyone else

Settling New Atlantis first is a fourth settling option to keep that from happening.

Love the concept, and having a Carrack from the start is a huge advantage...

I have to disagree with the others, more choice is not less choice. Sid's Sushi anyone?

Normally, I would always pick gold over gems, as it comes on a hill and therefore has some production. But here..... I think I will flip a coin.

Since everyone settled both locations in your GOTM, I was thinking they would do likewise here. So, site with food would be chosen by all, to build the second settler. If some like food and some like gold, then I would happily make the change suggested at top.


Should I drop a hint about the AIs likely to be encountered?

 

[neilmeister]

I actually quite liked the concept.

Its your game Deckhand, so you set it up how you like, but....
...if you replace the gems with pigs, then everyone will (or should) pick the gold site, at least with how it is now, it really is a coin flip.

Besides it's Noble, if you can't try funky stuff at this level, when can you?

With 3 seafood and starting with Fishing already, we will simply be building WB's regardless. No point researching AH, we need Mining asap and then BW to keep our worker busy and chop out some WB's. Even if I founded the pigs site, I wouldn't get AH before Mining & BW.

 

[Deckhand]

...if you replace the gold with pigs, then everyone will (or should) pick the gems site.

Maybe I wasn't clear - offer was to replace gems with pigs, so choice was between gold and pigs. But then as you say, everyone would take gold. Maybe if there wasn't so much sea food...

Besides it's Noble, if you can't try funky stuff at this level, when can you?

Exactly.

 

[neilmeister]

Ahhh, you are a ninja. I realised my typo and fixed it already!

 

[jesusin]

Nice scenario!!!
I'm planning on settling both sites. I don't think there will be a 2nd city as good as the one I don't choose for my capital in the continents.

 

[Folket]

Creating two different but viable starts is very difficult.


Perhaps an interesting choice would be if one start had horses/elephants and one had bronze/iron.

 

[wwassme]

The description says we start with Plato as well. Since he's not visible, he must be on the Carrack. Any speculation as to what type of unit he is? My guess is a GS, but a GA or a GP are also possibilities. I doubt he is a military unit, but that's possible as well. Depending on what he is, we'll then have some choices to make as to how to use him.

We also start with Future Tech #1. That will add +1 and +1 to each city, won't it? That will allow greater city growth.

With regard to the AI, the Phalanx has 100% defense versus chariots. That might suggest Hatty and/or Ramsesses are in the game. Also, if Deckhand is trying to keep the choice equal, we might have the exact same AI on each side.

 

[MarkM]

Though I was questioning in my first post, I was just sharing my genuine reaction, nothing more. I think you should just go ahead with what you want to do. It's just a game after all, and this kind of variability exists in every civ game (do I SIP, or wander a turn or two?), maybe just never before quite at this level.

I think it will be interesting though, to try to break down the results (unofficially) into two groups. If you do that, this game could end up generating more interesting discussion than usual, a good thing.

Thanks Deckhand! It's all good.

 

[Folket]

The description says we start with Plato as well. Since he's not visible, he must be on the Carrack. Any speculation as to what type of unit he is? My guess is a GS, but a GA or a GP are also possibilities. I doubt he is a military unit, but that's possible as well. Depending on what he is, we'll then have some choices to make as to how to use him.

We also start with Future Tech #1. That will add +1 and +1 to each city, won't it? That will allow greater city growth.

With regard to the AI, the Phalanx has 100% defense versus chariots. That might suggest Hatty and/or Ramsesses are in the game. Also, if Deckhand is trying to keep the choice equal, we might have the exact same AI on each side.

I suspected Plato is our leader and not a unit on the map.

 

[Deckhand]

The description says we start with Plato as well. Since he's not visible, he must be on the Carrack. Any speculation as to what type of unit he is? My guess is a GS, but a GA or a GP are also possibilities. I doubt he is a military unit, but that's possible as well. Depending on what he is, we'll then have some choices to make as to how to use him.

sorry about the confusion

I suspected Plato is our leader and not a unit on the map.

Folket is correct.

The other civ's must just use the same ceremonial title, based on their founder for all their leaders, like Khan or Caeser or Shaka.

 

[AlanH]

I've indicated to DH that I haven't built the Mac saves yet. So if he wants to adjust the start before I make them, he is free to do so.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I propose leaving the scenario as it is. To me, it becomes a choice of working a Coastal Fish nearly non-stop as well as a Gem Mine versus an Ocean Fish nearly non-stop as well as a Gold Mine.


Or, if people think outside of the box a little bit with what they are given, they will see another possibility: on the PH For on the Gem Resource side, giving you Gem, Corn, and Fish, as well as a faster-built Work Boat and a faster-set-up Coastal Fish due to the Fish being adjacent to your City Centre. Leave the 2 Clams for a later City.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I propose leaving the scenario as it is. To me, it becomes a choice of working a Coastal Fish nearly non-stop as well as a Gem Mine versus an Ocean Fish nearly non-stop as well as a Gold Mine.

I'm inclined to agree. I've thought a lot about how you might tweak the two sites, but the problem is almost anything you do is likely to make one of the sites obviously the better one to almost everyone. I know from experience mapmaking that it's quite hard to come up with two sites that are different but balanced enough that almost everyone isn't going to choose the same site. Kudos to Deckhand for trying to give us an unusual scenario. While a more obvious way to distinguish the sites might have been nice, I don't think any simple tweak is likely to give much of a net improvement. And the current discussion about tweaking the start is getting in the way of discussing strategy!

Or, if people think outside of the box a little bit with what they are given, they will see another possibility: on the PH For on the Gem Resource side, giving you Gem, Corn, and Fish, as well as a faster-built Work Boat and a faster-set-up Coastal Fish due to the Fish being adjacent to your City Centre. Leave the 2 Clams for a later City.

I've been wondering about settling somewhere non-obvious too. The two city ruins locations where we're implicitly invited to settle both have way too much food but are only mediocre long term capitals. Your idea has a lot of merit for a faster start - the only disadvantage is that the 2nd city that picks up the clams is going to have very few usable non-ocean tiles not already claimed by the capital. But with two hills and two clams, that 2nd city could make a passable GP farm.

The other idea that crossed my mind is to settle right on the corner of the coast (on the gems side, 1SW of the fish) to pick up all the seafood and (temporarily) the gems/gold, while hoping to found a future capital inland to pick up the corn and take over the gems/gold. The original city then becomes a great GP farm with 3 hills and 3 seafood. But I'm worried that although might be better long term, it'll slow down the start too much.

The worker is going to be useless until we've researched mining, so I'm thinking of taking the scout with the settler then returning for the worker. The scout can do 1 turn of exploring without delaying settling.