News: GOTM12 Pre-Game Discussion

[igelkott]

I've generated a similar map and it turned out I was the only civ one a large island/small continent, half of it covered with tundra. there was a max of 7 usable spots for cities and absolutely no sea path to other landmasses.

It's tough to keep up sciencewise, when all the other civs share konowledge and resources for thousands of years.

I think that might be the catch in this month's gotm. what's your strategy, if you're trapped on an island half-covered with tundra until astronomy?

 

[nerbuth]

I think with the mix of resources around us, we have the ability to tech very quickly solo. Given that we're playing prince as well, it has the makings of a very easy game. I would imagine that the catch, as others have mentioned, is that we're trapped on our island/continent until Astronomy with zero or one civ. Part of the challenge of the game will be to tech as fast as possible with little or no AI help. I don't see the point in going for Archery in the early game as it's unlikely we'll have an early war. I'll go for worker/growth techs, and if we do run into AI, we can conquer them with axe/sword/mace.

Either way, I would expect to consolidate control and then beeline to Astronomy.

 

[JerichoHill]

Mansa starts with the wheel and mining, which means we can get the gold faster for quicker research. My current thought is to move the warrior 1E and the settler 2 south and settle ON A RESOURCE. We don't really lose it because there's wine across the ways we can grab later for the happiness bonus. I'd like to keep the pigs and gold in the same city, and that opens up a few coastal tiles to help us out too.

That, and eschewing religion in favor of library cultural expansion. I will also go for the pyramids wonder to take advantage of our spiritual trait (switch between government civics fast.

The CS slingshot will be a bit over-rated here I think.

 

[Murky]

Looks we're on the soutwest edge of a eastern continent.

I'm thinking Hunting->AH->Archery->BW->Pottery->Myst->Poly->Priesthood->Writting->CoL>>CS slingshot.

Build order: Worker, Scout, Skirmisher, Settler

 

[Adonias]

In a similar test game (same resources, solo on an island) and I managed to get pyramids, and CS slingshot, 3 religions (Confu, Tao and Islam). The CS slingshot helped very much, and should be easy on prince. Getting the pyramids depends a little bit on how great the second city site is and what other civs do. Pyramids were built about 1000BC, Oracle (and CS slingshot) about 400 years earlier. I skipped most techs on my way though (no alphabet, just some worker techs)... Solo teching is very well possible, especially if you go for a quick cultural win, you don't really need to tech al that much (music, then liberalism for nationalism)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Looks we're on the soutwest edge of a eastern continent.

What makes you think that it's the eastern continent?

(Not I guess that it makes any difference to the game given the world wrap but I'm curious anyway)

 

[Murky]

What makes you think that it's the eastern continent?

(Not I guess that it makes any difference to the game given the world wrap but I'm curious anyway)

Because of the direction the resource indicators are pointing to and that there is tundra to our south.

 

[drkodos]

I believe there will be some type of land to the immediate SW of the start screen.

 

[Goodenuf]

Mansa starts with the wheel and mining, which means we can get the gold faster for quicker research. My current thought is to move the warrior 1E and the settler 2 south and settle ON A RESOURCE. We don't really lose it because there's wine across the ways we can grab later for the happiness bonus. I'd like to keep the pigs and gold in the same city, and that opens up a few coastal tiles to help us out too.

I hadn't considered this option at all, but the more I look at it, the more I like it. All those resources will be nice to have in one city, especially with Bureaucracy later on (hello CS slingshot!). A good way to get that wine worked later as well. A city on the N coast (i.e. 1W or 2W of start) would make working the wine a bit more of a challenge.

Settling on a resource doesn't mean you lose the resource, correct? I think you lose the 'working' advantage of the resource (i.e. the bonus hammers/commerce etc.), but you still get the use of it once the appropriate tech is researched. I may be wrong, though.

I will likely move warrior NW to see if there's any seafood in the upper left. If not, then settler NE to see what's on the other side of the hill. Finally if there's nothing there, then down to 2S of starting spot. Don't really like to have to wait until turn 3 for settling, though, but the location may be worth it. If there's good stuff N of the hill, then perhaps this spot will be good for city #2.

 

[drkodos]

Settling on a resource doesn't mean you lose the resource, correct? I think you lose the 'working' advantage of the resource (i.e. the bonus hammers/commerce etc.), but you still get the use of it once the appropriate tech is researched. I may be wrong, though.

dui.

You are correct and that's an interesting start strategy worth considering.

 

[totororo]

Settling on a resource doesn't mean you lose the resource, correct? I think you lose the 'working' advantage of the resource (i.e. the bonus hammers/commerce etc.), but you still get the use of it once the appropriate tech is researched. I may be wrong, though.

I disagree with that, because you'll loose the benefit of the grassland - river (once forest choped) tile, which is a great place for an early cottage. I am pretty sure it's better to place another city later close to the wine.

 

[ewokimpi]

I'm fascinated by all the discussion about being on an island. Island starts are rare on Continents. It is much more likely that we are out on the end of a peninsula. In a day, we'll all know.

I'm planning on settling in place. The warrior will be taking off east to discover the lay of the land.

I'll be doing a library/academy start OR a rushing start to take out a near (9 tiles away or so) opponent.

Tech path: BW, Hunting, AH, then Writing if have some elbow room (or if on an island?!?), or Archery if have near neighbor who isn't Huayna Capac.

Worker 1st, then warriors until can do library (chopped) or barracks (chopped), depending on where the neighbors are.

Will start to work the gold mine at three pop before the pasture is done, while still researching AH.

In the rushing test game, the unlucky neighbor was gone before 700 BC. Hatty gave me such a pretty pair of towns!

In the lib/academy test game, I even built the Great Library by 375 BC (had Marble in the 2nd city) while having about the same number of cities as the AIs. Space was very restricted though, and war would have come soon.

 

[occam]

Because of the direction the resource indicators are pointing to and that there is tundra to our south.

Sorry, Murky, I am confused...

I understand the tundra/south part .... could you explain more about the resource indicators? It seems to me that the Warrior is selected and centered and the resource indicators to the east of the Warrior hang east (wine, spices, gold) and the indicators to the west of the Warrior hang west (only pig).

How can we tell if we are on an eastern continent?

thanks
- Occam

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm fascinated by all the discussion about being on an island. Island starts are rare on Continents. It is much more likely that we are out on the end of a peninsula. In a day, we'll all know.

Have to say I think the talk is pure speculation and I agree with you it's much more likely we're on a peninsula. However, even so, the fact that this is a continents map with a cold climate means we can expect less usable land than we've seen in any previous GOTM (other possibly than the archipelago-based GOTM8). (Which is why I'm seriously looking at not wanting to waste those coast tiles. If this was something like the highlands map of the last GOTM, I wouldn't give a fig about wasting a few tiles).

The speculation is based on the idea that since this is a relatively easy level, Ainwood will have done something to seriously handicap the start. Personally I'm not convinced. Sure, it's possible, but on the other hand the point of easy levels is so that, ummm, players who aren't yet skilled enough to play harder levels well, can get a chance to play the GOTM and submit a win, isn't it? If that's what Ainwood is thinking, then it seems unlikely that he'd inevitably handicap the start every time just because the level is < monarch.

 

[Murky]

Sorry, Murky, I am confused...

I understand the tundra/south part .... could you explain more about the resource indicators? It seems to me that the Warrior is selected and centered and the resource indicators to the east of the Warrior hang east (wine, spices, gold) and the indicators to the west of the Warrior hang west (only pig).

How can we tell if we are on an eastern continent?

thanks
- Occam

It's just a guess. I don't think it's super important to know in advance because it is a wrap-around map.

I made a test save for use with the HoF mod.

 

[da_Vinci]

I have never settled on a resource, so what are the implications of settling on the spice 2 S of the settler start? Can be settled on turn 2, grabs all visible resources (but potentially wastes a spice as a workable tile), 3 hills in play, and room for more cities N and E even if we are on an island. Does preclude any more cities NW and W, so can't get any sea resources that might be there. And the capital will be at the margin of the empire.

Thoughts?

dV

From post # 52 in the thread, so you heard it here first! We newbies have enought trouble getting any credit !

The more I think about the start choice, the more I think that whatever city works the gold needs a food resource, or it either won't grow, or you can't work the gold right away. If the capital does not include the gold, and there is no other food resource close to the gold, then haven't we shot ourselves in the foot (or in the wallet)? I am thinking that there are other coastal tiles to be had, but maybe the pigs really belong with the gold.

Which rules out moves west with settler unless there is known food near the gold (after the NE settler move?). Even if the warrior finds a seafood resource, can you really settle W and risk no food resource near the gold?

dV

 

[DynamicSpirit]

From post # 52 in the thread, so you heard it here first! We newbies have enought trouble getting any credit !

The more I think about the start choice, the more I think that whatever city works the gold needs a food resource, or it either won't grow, or you can't work the gold right away. If the capital does not include the gold, and there is no other food resource close to the gold, then haven't we shot ourselves in the foot (or in the wallet)? I am thinking that there are other coastal tiles to be had, but maybe the pigs really belong with the gold.

Which rules out moves west with settler unless there is known food near the gold (after the NE settler move?). Even if the warrior finds a seafood resource, can you really settle W and risk no food resource near the gold?

dV

Yeah, one thing I've learned. Gold (on a hill) is basically useless unless you have some food resource to make up. The way I tend to see it is, count the food surplus on the squares you're likely to be working. If you have nothing but unimproved grassland, that gives you +2 food surplus (zero from the grassland, +2 from the city, and allowing for each pop eats 2 food. You work out the surplus as +2 (for the city) plus (food-2) for each square worked). (And add in -2 for any specialist you want to put in)

Now a +2 surplus I regard as 'normal' and it means the city food box grows at +2/turn. I actually think that's pretty slow growth, I'm generally reluctant to put down a city if I can't see a way to get at least +3/turn while simultaneously giving me a useful amount of commerce or production, which generally means either working cottages (or gold) or mines.

With that calculation, pigs+gold gives +4 which is pretty good, but then there's other plains and hills. That can easily take you down to +2 or even to zero. I've just realized that the plains-spices actually do give you you 2 food with a plantation (hadn't realized a plantation on them gives +1 food) which does make the start location more favourable food-wise than I'd thought, I'd been mentally factoring -1 food surplus for them, it's actually zero, but even so, if this wasn't a capital and I was looking to settle by some gold, I'd probably want a bit more food potential than this spot has. (And usually I do find it. Food resources are quite plentiful).

I do find the idea of settling 2S intriguing btw. That's definite lateral thinking

 

[LowtherCastle]

Even if the warrior finds a seafood resource, can you really settle W and risk no food resource near the gold?dV

I intend to search around with the settler at the beginning to find out 1) if there is a food resource near the gold and 2) if there is another gold hill nearby. Doesn't matter to me if I have to move back to the original spot to settle.

My main concern is that the current spot prevents me from settling on the coast next to the pigs and having a fantastic money-making second town, so I'm hoping that there's some food either near the gold or up to the NE (or down SE for that matter) in the water tiles. I still want my capital on the coast, if possible, to use the colossus and Great LIghtnouse for added commerce, but prefer a coastal poistion that includes the gold for early commerce.

 

[JerichoHill]

Mansa starts with the wheel and mining, which means we can get the gold faster for quicker research. My current thought is to move the warrior 1E and the settler 2 south and settle ON A RESOURCE. We don't really lose it because there's wine across the ways we can grab later for the happiness bonus. I'd like to keep the pigs and gold in the same city, and that opens up a few coastal tiles to help us out too.

That, and eschewing religion in favor of library cultural expansion. I will also go for the pyramids wonder to take advantage of our spiritual trait (switch between government civics fast.

The CS slingshot will be a bit over-rated here I think.

Abiding by the following strategy, I wiped the map with the test game. We don't need that extra happiness resource on Prince, hence it worked like a charm!

 

[brianbenedict]

My initial thoughts after running a few starts with one of the test games:

Skirmishers aren't really my cup of tea. I generally dislike archers (the best defense is a good offense I think), and a super-archer isn't enough to make me want to research hunting and archery. If I have a super-close neighbor I might consider a skirmisher rush, but otherwise I'll wait for better units.

Starting in place looks like the best plan. My initial city must have the pigs and the gold. So the two options are to settle in place or settle on the spices. Settling in place seems to offer a better possibility of turning up something good. So unless my warrior moves east and finds something amazing, I will settle in place on turn 1.

In the practice games, CS slingshot was very doable. I'll have to see how the game develops, but I'm thinking

Also, I've gotten used to playing higher difficulty levels where alphabet is a huge priority. On lower difficulty levels, however, trading isn't quite so lucrative. So depending on how many neighbors I have and how friendly they are, alphabet will wait--at the very least until after the CS slingshot.

Time to download and go. I love the beginning of the month