News: WOTM 07 Pre-Game Discussion

[Thalaba]

I'm doubtful that you can get a GP from Stonehenge early enough to lightbulb Theology before anyone else founds Christianity. I agree that if you can do this, it would make the plan more attractive. Although, if you're converting to Christianity, you're making everyone else dislike you.

I lightbulb theology all the time using GPs, but then I'm usually playing Monarch and epic speed and not Immortal. Does your comment refer to immortal and higher settings specifically, or all settings, or WOTM7 only?

@slowrider:

Do you not find it more effective to give catapults city raider promos and use them to pound down the defenses in a city before the main troops attack. My experience has been that if I do it this way, I lose about 2-3 catpults per attack on a city but the remaining cats get stronger. Also my main army stays largely intact and I don't lose any other troops, usually. Depends on the number of defenders, of course, but I'm assuming about 4 to 5 defenders in a city.

Anybody else care to weigh in on what's best, here?

Thalaba

 

[Orion071]

There is a nice level 2 trick (with Barracks and one GG +2xp). Learned from a post last game that four level two catapults (barrage and accuracy) can reduce any city defenses to zero in one turn … it’s sweet. That's where my first GG will be going.

In Warlords 2.08, Walls will slow down the bombardment rate by 50% so your 4 Accuracy Cats will then take 2 turns to knock down the defense.

I tried a test game last night and was surprised at the rate of Barb city spawning. I took out a city and auto-razed it and 5 turns later it was back again. Fog-busters are going to be a must in this game...

 

[DaviddesJ]

I lightbulb theology all the time using GPs, but then I'm usually playing Monarch and epic speed and not Immortal. Does your comment refer to immortal and higher settings specifically, or all settings, or WOTM7 only?

Only Immortal. I am not going from experience, just intuition. (And, are you using just the GPP from Stonehenge to get your GP at Monarch, or other sources too?)

Anybody else care to weigh in on what's best, here?

All else being equal, it's best to avoid losing units in attacks, because you get less war weariness.

 

[Obormot]

Can’t bring myself to use vassalage though … Theocracy is OK if and when I ever get it.

Vassalage is great for military games, much better then bureaucracy, at least if you have a big enough empire. Theocracy is not that good though: 1. it requires 2 revolts, not just one; 2. different cities may have different religions, so often you'll have to spread the religon manually, building missionaries instead of military to make use of it; 3. if you don't adopt a state religion you'll get culture from any religion to expand borders in cities you capture. So, I'll nearly always adopt vassalage in a military game, but I'll sometimes stay in paganism instead of theocracy. It depends on how the religions are distributed and how quickly I get theocracy (which influences the number of turns needed for anarchy: two 2-turn revolts is a bit too much in almost any case).

So I don't really like great prophets. Settling and shrines takes too long to pay off and prophet techs aren't that usefull compared to other GPs. I would rather get a scientist and lightbulb machinery. If I do build SH & get a prophet, I would rather start a GA with it.

Do you not find it more effective to give catapults city raider promos and use them to pound down the defenses in a city before the main troops attack. My experience has been that if I do it this way, I lose about 2-3 catpults per attack on a city but the remaining cats get stronger. Also my main army stays largely intact and I don't lose any other troops, usually. Depends on the number of defenders, of course, but I'm assuming about 4 to 5 defenders in a city.

Anybody else care to weigh in on what's best, here?

I usually promote some cats with barrage (and its better to use barrage then city raider: city raider will only increase the damage done to the top defender, not the whole stack) and some with accuracy if I have that option (requires 5 xp). A small tip: its not necessary to heal all cats, you can use the wounded ones to bring the defenses down and the healed ones for suiciding. Its especially usefull with charismatic: you can promote the cat with barrage-I, atatck and if it retreats you'll have enough XP to promote it with accuracy.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I would rather get a scientist and lightbulb machinery.

Are you ready for this by the time of your first GP? You have to learn Sailing, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Compass, Mathematics, Calendar first. That seems like a lot. I would think Machinery might be a good option for the second GP.

If I do build SH & get a prophet, I would rather start a GA with it.

I think you're underestimating the value of settling a GP in your military city that has HE, barracks, military advisor, etc. There's a lot of synergy there.

 

[Obormot]

Are you ready for this by the time of your first GP? You have to learn Sailing, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Compass, Mathematics, Calendar first. That seems like a lot. I would think Machinery might be a good option for the second GP.

Yes, you are right. I just remembered that its possible to get machinery with a scientist, but forgot to check the list. Compass is quite useless on pangaea, so I'll propably just self-research machinery if I don't get compass in trade. Need to think carefully what can be done to shorten the path to either knights or maces. Maybe I'll just get construction and stop there if there is ivory.

I think you're underestimating the value of settling a GP in your military city that has HE, barracks, military advisor, etc. There's a lot of synergy there.

I don't think so, that is just two base hammers. I like golden ages a lot, thats a lot of production instantly. If I don't find a quick path to maces/knights with lightbulbing I'll propably go that route.

 

[Priah]

I honestly dont know why you would go for anything besides domination with Persia. Charasmatic and Imperalistic would be completly useless traits without domination in mind.

Im really hoping for one amazing production city site where I can settle two great generals and the heroic epic and pump out level 3 city raider macemen and trebechets (yes, i like to get a few city raider trebuchets along with the suicide catapults). In my test game my army is pretty much unstoppable. By the time it was ending, I had well over 100 units in my grenadier/calvary/cannon attack force and tore through the last three opponents in less than 40 turns. Might have been overkill, but on Immortal the enemy tends to actually have attack units.

 

[slowrider]

In Warlords 2.08, Walls will slow down the bombardment rate by 50% so your 4 Accuracy Cats will then take 2 turns to knock down the defense.

Thanks, didn't know that.

All else being equal, it's best to avoid losing units in attacks, because you get less war weariness.

Forgot about that and WW is really a pain ... I tend to suicide too many cats thinking they're cheap. Need to keep in mind that is not the only cost.

Vassalage is great for military games, much better then bureaucracy, at least if you have a big enough empire. Theocracy is not that good though: 1. it requires 2 revolts, not just one; 2. different cities may have different religions, so often you'll have to spread the religon manually, building missionaries instead of military to make use of it; 3. if you don't adopt a state religion you'll get culture from any religion to expand borders in cities you capture. So, I'll nearly always adopt vassalage in a military game, but I'll sometimes stay in paganism instead of theocracy. It depends on how the religions are distributed and how quickly I get theocracy (which influences the number of turns needed for anarchy: two 2-turn revolts is a bit too much in almost any case).

I never thought of any of that. Good stuff ... very convincing arguements. You've sold me with Vassalage vs Theocracy but I need another push to give up my beloved Bureaucracy. As a warmonger I'm all ears. Oh, and by the way, could you please update the rest of the civics in the strategy guide.

I usually promote some cats with barrage (and its better to use barrage then city raider: city raider will only increase the damage done to the top defender, not the whole stack) ...

That's what I've been doing but have alway debated using the CR option. Think I'll stop worrying about that.

PS - I finally learned how to use the multi-quote. Please bear with me until I get tired of overusing it.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I honestly dont know why you would go for anything besides domination with Persia.

The GOTM is a competition. There are many different prizes, all of which are equally valid. Going for one of the alternative victory conditions makes more sense, if most people are doing the opposite, because you will have less competition.

I can win reliably with any victory condition. So why not choose one that's more interesting?

(To me, the only problem with the other victory conditions isn't the leader traits. I just don't have the patience for long games.)

 

[DaviddesJ]

I don't think so, that is just two base hammers. I like golden ages a lot, thats a lot of production instantly.

I don't see why "just two base hammers" is a small amount. Multiply by 100-200 turns to get the value. Compared to the golden age (costing two great people) giving maybe +10 base hammers in your main military city, for 10 turns, well, it seems like a lot to me.

You can't use your first GP for a golden age "instantly". You have to wait many turns, for another one. (And if that's one that you wanted to use for something else, then keep waiting, etc.)

 

[Erkon]

...
You've sold me with Vassalage vs Theocracy but I need another push to give up my beloved Bureaucracy. As a warmonger I'm all ears.
...

It took me a while to realize that Vasselage reduces the unit support cost of units (I misunderstood the help text ), which will somewhat compensate for the extra civic cost. The reduction in unit support is related to the size of your empire if I remember correct, and the civic cost increases when your empire grows as well.

Then keep in mind that the extra +2XP will reduce the number of units you loose in battle (if it gives another promotion). Assume 20% more units survive. That could be considered as 20% higher production in all your unit production cities. So, if your capital represents less than 50% of your military production, then Vassalage is actually competitive. If your capital contributes less than 25% of your war production, Vassalage is actually better. This can happen already when you reach a medium sized empire.

 

[Jove]

I might go for space. Nearly all my civ4 gotms have been domination, so I'm ready for something else. And sometimes I learn alot playing 'across' a civ's strengths. I'll start aggressive in any case, and may not be able to resist a military win.

As for the coastline, it's just a statistical argument in favor of the banannas. If we're in the center of the continent that's less maintenence and one less reason not to settle there. And, how many views this size are there on a low water pangea? How many of those views are 3 tiles from the west coast? But of course only looking will tell us for sure.

I'm looking forward to using retreating Immortals to take out cities. 40% retreat chance = 40% survival chance, and additionally 'Retreat II' gives immunity to first strikes. Whether the defenses have been bombarded or not, I like to chip away at a city's toughest couple of defenders with retreaters before sending in the attackers.

 

[DaviddesJ]

As for the coastline, it's just a statistical argument in favor of the banannas.

If the water we can see is fresh water, I'm probably less likely to settle on the bananas than if it's coast. The yield from the fresh water will be the same as the yield from coast (after lighthouse). And it's less likely to have a seafood resource. And it doesn't get the harbor benefit.

 

[Harbourboy]

I, too, will be aiming purely at surviving as long as possible.

 

[Obormot]

I never thought of any of that. Good stuff ... very convincing arguements. You've sold me with Vassalage vs Theocracy but I need another push to give up my beloved Bureaucracy. As a warmonger I'm all ears. Oh, and by the way, could you please update the rest of the civics in the strategy guide.

Its a pretty straightforward warmonger's set: monarchy (or police state if we capture the Pyramids), slavery, vassalage, decentralisation (just because the techs are too far away), theocracy or paganism.

 

[Jove]

If the water we can see is fresh water, I'm probably less likely to settle on the bananas than if it's coast.

Right, a statistical argument Against the bananas

 

[DaviddesJ]

Do you keep the monument happiness after calendar or just the culture? If so Stonehenge could be tempting if it can reliably be built.

When you get Calendar, any monuments created by Stonehenge disappear completely.

If you built a monument by hand, then it remains, but it no longer generates happiness, just culture.

 

[Priah]

When you get Calendar, any monuments created by Stonehenge disappear completely.

If you built a monument by hand, then it remains, but it no longer generates happiness, just culture.

Id recommend going for monarchy first before calender, hopefully we will have some wine sitting around.

 

[Harbourboy]

I can't wait. Is it time for it to start yet? I suppose I shouldn't be in any rush because I figure I will be wiped out within the first hour - probably by a couple of half strength immortal barbarians warriors.

Come to think of it, I have never seen the You're Dead screen in Civ IV. In Civ II it was a picture of your bones sitting in the dust. I'm soon going to find out what Civ IV has in store for me in the way of humiliating gloating.

 

[AgedOne]

I've tried quite a number of trial games now, each time using as close as I can get to the starting conditions we know of - world type and visible start location.
Last night I replayed the same start several times from 400BC up to about 500BC each time.
A few things I noticed were:
I can pretty much found a religion every time - if I want to. Hinduism mainly. And it didn't seem to matter even if I didn't have a particularly commerce-rich start square. The AI seemed to go for Buddhism first, rather than Hinduism.
I can build Stonehenge (if I chop a couple of forest tiles) before the AI. Assuming I want Stonehenge, that is.
I managed to get Alphabet first in virtually every game, usually heading for it after getting Wheel, Animals, Mining, either Bronze or Archery - then straight up for Writing and Alpha. Meant I was able to trade it for various that I had missed.

However, I was pretty much always bottom of the scores every time, despite my best efforts.

Losing out on the land-grab proved to be a problem sometimes. You seem to have to get a settler or two out early (or earlier than I tried in some attempts - where I had concentrated on warriors/workers/workboat first).

Are the animals extra-tough on Immortal level? I found I lost my scout too many times, even when trying to protect them on forest/hills.

Then the barbs are a pain. Anywhere that the AI doesn't grab, the barbs set up cities. You get archers coming at you all too soon.

That's something else I have made a note of. Military strength early on is the only way to deter the barbs and your violent neighbours. The last trial was my best one (not even bottom of the score!) and that was achieved by going for quick growth and expansion. However, even this one was spoiled by barb attacks when I hadn't got archers going yet. Lost my new city, which would have been a terrible blow in the real WOTM.

All in all, I think I'm beginning to get my plan together. It's a bit disjointed right now - just a set of objectives that I need to combine.

Mainly I'd like to reach 500BC not being the smallest, weakest, most backward civ - and in a position to stir things up with my Immortals!