News: WOTM 07 Pre-Game Discussion

[Army Hooah]

This is one time that I think I will sit down and figure out the exact research path that I want to take. Most of the time I just kind of wing it and then I really don't play to the strength of the nation that I am.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think we've been given a very useful set of traits here. Warmongers will get great generals out very quickly and with them some very highly promoted units. Builders will be able to get out settlers a lot faster than normal to help with the early land grab. And everyone will benefit from the happiness cap being--in effect--a monarch level cap not an immortal level cap. The only thing to watch is there's nothing to help with the immortal level maintenance costs.

@Vynd: I don't normally dream of production powerhouses for my capital (perhaps I would if I was more of a warmonger but I'm by nature a builder). In the early days I'm happy to use slavery for a lot of my production - and this location is well suited to that. Later on I'm usually more interested in a high commerce capital, which this also looks reasonably good for.

@DaviddesJ: I'm somewhat baffled by your suggestion of settling on the bananas, since even if there are sea resources there, I see no good reason for it. You don't gain any production, you are basically swapping grassland-cottages for sea tiles, losing forest-chops, making it less likely that a strategic resource will turn out to be in the capital's radius, and very likely putting your capital further away from the eventual centre of your civ. Have I missed something? (Assuming the tiles to the left of the visible area are coast: The screenshot is suggestive that they are but I'm not 100% certain)

 

[Priah]

I disagree on the idea of conquerinrg the whole world with immortals. Just isnt going to work. In my test game, ai gets huge wandering troop numbers with spearmen in every city just waiting for those immortals. Id just love to find alex next to us... id probably cry.

 

[Obormot]

I disagree on the idea of conquerinrg the whole world with immortals. Just isnt going to work. In my test game, ai gets huge wandering troop numbers with spearmen in every city just waiting for those immortals. Id just love to find alex next to us... id probably cry.

I think we should be able to conquer one or two civs with immortals, but for the whole pangaea construction is necessary. Although perhaps ainwood made our UU useless once again, the sea level is low and thus the AI might be far away, plus they might have copper that is easy to connect.

@DaviddesJ: I'm somewhat baffled by your suggestion of settling on the bananas, since even if there are sea resources there, I see no good reason for it. You don't gain any production, you are basically swapping grassland-cottages for sea tiles, losing forest-chops, making it less likely that a strategic resource will turn out to be in the capital's radius, and very likely putting your capital further away from the eventual centre of your civ. Have I missed something? (Assuming the tiles to the left of the visible area are coast: The screenshot is suggestive that they are but I'm not 100% certain)

You get +1 food from the city center if you settle on the bananas. So in the short term that gives us +1 food, and in the long term that gives -1 food (you loose 2 food by working a farm instead of a plantaion, but you get 1 back from the city center). If there is indeed a sea resource in the west, settling on the banana becomes clearly better. Even if not, it still seems to be a rather good choice. Sea tiles instead of grassland is not that bad, in the early game you won't have enough happiness to work that many cottages anyway. And if going for a conquest/domination win that just doesn't matter at all. Looks like decreasing the propability of having horses in capital's radius is the biggest disadvantage of moving.

 

[Priah]

Im starting to think the immortals are there just to be able to survive the barbs... I have like ten immortals and I still am getting a few points pillaged, they are literally swarms of them.

 

[DaviddesJ]

@DaviddesJ: I'm somewhat baffled by your suggestion of settling on the bananas, since even if there are sea resources there, I see no good reason for it. You don't gain any production, you are basically swapping grassland-cottages for sea tiles, losing forest-chops, making it less likely that a strategic resource will turn out to be in the capital's radius, and very likely putting your capital further away from the eventual centre of your civ. Have I missed something? (Assuming the tiles to the left of the visible area are coast: The screenshot is suggestive that they are but I'm not 100% certain)

The main idea is to give the capital much more food surplus, early on. Current location has +2 (city center), +2 (cows), +2 (wheat) = +6 food. Bananas are not worth much, they are no better than a grassland farm (until Calendar). [I guess you could put a temporary cottage on them to get 1-2 commerce as well.] By building on the bananas, you could have +3 (city center w/bananas), +2 cows, +2 (wheat), +3 (clams) = +10 food. That's quite a significant difference.

Coastal capital is also good for trade (with harbor), offsetting some of the downside. I tend to play for short games, so the long-term potential of maxed out cottages isn't so important to me. I can always build another city later on that will develop a lot of cottages.

Nevertheless, I agree you have some good points against the idea, as well. Also, knowing that you have bananas in your fat cross, you could prioritize Calendar much higher than I normally would (e.g., you could aim for Calendar before Iron Working).

 

[Harbourboy]

So long as you gave up on Stonehenge. That would mean that Calendar would have no downside of making your nice stone circle obsolete.

 

[ainwood]

So long as you gave up on Stonehenge. That would mean that Calendar would have no downside of making your nice stone circle obsolete.

Personally, I think one of my weaknesses is in holding-on too long with stonehenge, rather than researching calendar. Stopping research on calendar with one turn remaining whilst I get an extra cultural expansion or two is a way of mitigating this problem though.

 

[DaviddesJ]

So long as you gave up on Stonehenge.

Well, I almost always "give up" on Stonehenge, at Immortal, unless I have stone. I usually skip monuments, and just rush (or chop) libraries after granaries---except if I absolutely have to put a city where it's really unproductive until its first cultural expansion. An early push to Calendar also means early Mathematics, which is good on this forest-heavy start. Conversely, of course, you could view the many forests as a gift of Stonehenge.

 

[Priah]

I just started a test game on Persia on Immortal difficulty. I shouldve upgraded myself a while ago, its actually hard and I feel like im competing for survival rather than just trying to win as quickly as possible. Im looking forward to this game.

 

[Harbourboy]

This will be far too difficult for me, as I have never managed to win above Prince level, but I will give it a go anyway.

Yes, the Persians do have nice bonuses but the flipside, as always, is the stuiff you're not getting:
- you have no cash because you're not Financial or Organised
- you have no culture because you're not Creative
- you can't build wonders fast because you're not Industrious
- you can't change civics easily because you're not Spiritual

etc. Basic stuff, I know, but worth remembering for those who are getting all glassy eyed over all the Great Generals they're going to get.

 

[Obormot]

Well, I almost always "give up" on Stonehenge, at Immortal, unless I have stone. I usually skip monuments, and just rush (or chop) libraries after granaries---except if I absolutely have to put a city where it's really unproductive until its first cultural expansion. An early push to Calendar also means early Mathematics, which is good on this forest-heavy start. Conversely, of course, you could view the many forests as a gift of Stonehenge.

In a conquest/domination game (and thats what I'll be going for this time) I usually just build a granary and a barracks in most cities, plus the cheapest culture building if I need to expand borders, which is usually a monument. Anyway, in this game we have a charismatic leader, so monuments also give +1 happy face, so I guess they get a much higher priority. Besides math & calendar are among the most favourite techs for the AI, and we have a decent difficulty level, so I don't think a rush to calendar is a good idea. I would rather go for Alphabet, then hopefully trade math and then get construction for catapults. Trade for calendar only once I own a calendar lux to make up for the lost monuments. This might take some time, so indeed, it seems like settling on the bananas is the best option here.

 

[CliftonBazaar]

I'm off to read up again on playing at Deity, so that my next trial at Immortal might not seem too terrifying.

Don't; the gap between Immortal and Diety is too great and won't teach you enough, stick with practicing Immortal.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think we should be able to conquer one or two civs with immortals

In a conquest/domination game (and thats what I'll be going for this time)

I'm curious how you envision doing your early preparations for conquering the first AI or two. Around what year would you like to be starting your warring, how many cities are you likely to have, and how many units would you like to be starting your offensive with?

At the very beginning, would you probably build a wkr, a couple warriors and an early settler, or just a wkr and barracks and rush straight to AH and the Wheel and crank out immortals? Or would you consider not even building a wkr and hope to steal one? With all that food with the banana location, would you prioritize Slavery?

These early decisions seem like they're the most critical and yet I'm never really sure how to approach them. How do you think through these decisions?

 

[Obormot]

I'll definitely build a worker, I never rely on capturing one.

The number of settlers I am going to build before the rush and the year of the attack will depend on the map: how good are the spots for settling, how easy will it be to get horses, how far is the AI, do they have copper/iron, etc. Its not that easy to derive a specific rule.

All the high difficulty maps in GOTMs so far favoured normal expansion over rushing, they all had low sea level and the AI were far away, separated by jungle, etc, while the land around the starting position was nice and it was possible to build some really nice cities. And this map also has a low sea level. So maybe I was too optimistic when I said about rushing two civs.

Another interesting idea would be to use a small force of immortals to cut the AI from copper/iron while expanding normally, and then conquer it easily facing only archers.

Slavery is a priority of course, I think I'll research AH, then fishing (if there is indeed a sea resource), then mining, then BW and revolt ASAP (IIRC we already have agriculture and the wheel).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Slavery is a priority of course, I think I'll research AH, then fishing (if there is indeed a sea resource), then mining, then BW and revolt ASAP (IIRC we already have agriculture and the wheel hunting) So I suppose you would time the Wheel so that you can connect Horses when the barracks are done? Or barracks come later? Early on they're expensive but useful with our -25% promotions.

....cut the AI from copper/iron...

So I take it you would research I/W? or would you try to get it with Alpha?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So I take it you would research I/W? or would you try to get it with Alpha?

You don't necessarily need iron working to cut the AI from iron (though it helps). You just pillage any mines you find. And you especially pillage any mines that are sitting on grassland where there doesn't seem to be any reason for a mine to be there!

 

[Obormot]

OK, then its necessary to slot in the wheel somewhere, propably after bronze.

I'll try to get IW from Alphabet, its too expensive to research it just to see where the AI iron is. It should be possible to get both IW and math in trade since its pangaea and we should get all 6 contacts by the time we get Alpha. It is also possible to find an iron mine even without the tech by looking at its production. It'll show that the mine is producing 5/6 hammers instead of 3/4.

The barracks are a good investment, I think. We'll need plenty of immortals even to begin the attack, so there is enough time for them to pay off.

 

[BSmith1068]

Ok.. so there has been some discussion on where to build the first city, but none on the first move for the scout.

I am inclined to go 2E with the scout to open up the lands to the east and see if there are any other resources in view/range of the starting spot. If not, maybe I'll venture to the bananas, but that also seems like a risk.

Conversely, one could send the scout SW (and then S?) to see if there is indeed a sea based resource before moving the settler, but that would leave the east dark.

I have never played immortal - so this will be interesting!

 

[Priah]

Best research order ive found is actually animal husbandry, mining, bronze working, mycticism, wheel, writing, alphabet and so on.

Other notes Ive found on Persia Immortal test games:
The 50% faster build for settlers ONLY applies to hammers you have going into building it, not surplus food.

I have managed to get the second city out and get the stonehedge built by 2000 bc. Only problem is, Ive had a real problem holding onto that second city and keeping barbs away from destroying it. In this latest test game I got horses in my fat cross, so that may have contributed to my feeling that getting a second city so quickly was pretty risky. Im going to have two seperate plans based on if we get horses in our fat cross. I think stonehedge is a no brainer this game, the great prophets are far more helpful than scientists for early warmongering, and you are going to build a monument in every city anyway.

The more I look at settling on the bananas the more im starting to like the idea. Im going to move the scout E then Se and see if I can find any more hills, or even plains with forests on them. Another issue is im not sure if the banana position will have enough forests around to do my stonehedge plan, not to mention wasting a turn. Of course if you get the coast, you can get the great lighthouse (without question pretty much best wonder in the game and easy to get). Not to mention settling away from any preplaced horses in our initial cross.

Another note, do not declare a religion. In my test game I got stuck between Isabella and monty, so I really didnt have much of a choice, had to join Isabella. Basically world war I was fought in 500 bc with every civ in the game killing eachother.

Overall I think playing my last two test games alone has raised my skill level tremendously, I was able to hold my own very easily and be number 2 in score by 200 ad, while relatively keeping up in tech. I shouldve upgraded myself long ago.