Ngomele civilization, a modmodmod for Orbis

[Seon]

Btw does anyone know Empress Theodora? That is a nice counter example of women only being opressed in the Dark Ages and such.

 

[arkham4269]

Actually, it is never the survival of the strongest, but 'survival of the fittest'. That is a huge difference.

I know that; I was typing quickly between errands today. I guess the point I wanted to make is folks like Nietzsche help propagate the idea that the strongest is the fittest which of course help lead to a lot of the Eugenics movements in Europe and the US.

UPDATE: Oops! I guess I should have read your whole reply. The off-topic topic that says, "I'm not dead yet!" =0

 

[civ_king]

Actually, it is never the survival of the strongest, but 'survival of the fittest'. That is a huge difference.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” Charles Darwin

 

[Thunder_Gr]

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” Charles Darwin

I know I should have resisted...But I couldn't...
Fittest is the most adaptable...Obvious enough, I guess.

Greeks happened to have women in very good treatment. They were a significant part of the society and comprised a good deal of the priesthood. They were well respected.
In fact, much better than in any other culture at the time.
In addition, Greeks had Godesses to represent wisdom and virtue and even War Virtues(Artemis was the Godess of Hunt and Athena was both a Godess of wisdom and war), while in most other cultures at the time, female godesses only represented fertility( the equivalent of Demetra in a sort), and/or punishment(the whole consept about Issis is a bit complicated). Most of the Roman pantheon was taken from the Greek culture, and most people are best familiar with the Roman names of the Greek Gods/Godesses.

Of course, there were differences in treatment in different city states. For your information, in Sparta, women were trained in the art of war and athletism. Some cities, like Athens, dispised Sparta for this, as well as the usuall power struggle issues.

 

[Imuratep]

Sorry to go OT but I study Latin and had a seminar about the role of the woman in the Antiquity, so I couldn't resist . I will go back to topic soon I promise .
In fact Greeks treated the average woman very bad.
No woman had the right to possess anything on her own. Instead she had a kyrios that controlled everything in her life (mostly her husband or her father). Women and men did not socialize together, so when a man had guests the woman had to stay in the backrooms. She only lived to bear children and manage the household and was expected to remain invisible at home. The best wife, according to a Greek writer of this time, was the one about whom the least was said, whether it be good or bad.
Male desire for compassion and sexuality was exclusively searched outside the marriage and nobody was interested in female desire for compassion as they were owned by men.
There was a minority of women that had at least some rights like very sucessful hetairas i.e. well educated courtesans that had an own house to entertain people there, but that's it.
Ok, Rome was even worse and on the whole women had a very hard time everywhere in these times, but there are countries that were different like Egypt and Celtia. In these countries women had the same rights to own property as men (in Greece the kyrios decided everything for her), socialized together (Unless in Greece men and women received her guests together) and women could divorce on their own without any preconditions. In Celtia they even received the money of their husband if he was unable to perform his marital duties due to impotence, interest in other women or homosexuality.
Very interesting links concerning this theme are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#Gender_and_sexual_norms
http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/index.htm

 

[arkham4269]

Not to get totally off topic, but the Greeks also had a practice where romantic love was usually between a older man and a young 'boy'.

At first blush this doesn't make sense, but after training up for 3 years and then spending a year in Afghanistan, it makes sense. In many cultures that prize virginity, the chance of a young man having sex is about zero. Then there is the the issue of bride price; it isn't uncommon in modern Afghanistan that a man can't afford a wife until he's 35! (Which is why a lot of Afghans brave the danger to work with the US/NATO; they can make a lot in a short time)

So just like in prison, if you can't get women, you get what you can. I think over time a whole 'mystique' was set up that said women were inferior and only good for breeding to try to convince younger men that the whole Athenian pederasty was actually a good thing.

In modern Afghanistan, we had what we Americans called "Man Love Thursday" where we knew the Afghans would do things they could 'confess' on Friday. (Their holy day akin to Sunday.) Sometimes on Saturday formation, we'd see some Afghan soldiers with fingernail polish. Sure it's easy to smirk but it does show that these guys aren't gay; they are doing the best they can in a bad situation even if that means some of them have to do a bit of drag to be the 'woman' for the night. I mean how many of you guys out there would like to be a virgin (at least with women) till you were 35?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Sorry to go OT but I study Latin and had a seminar about the role of the woman in the Antiquity, so I couldn't resist .

I don't suppose the seminar gave you a complete list of the different Greek City-States and how they were treated differently in each of them. In any case, I want to apologise to Opera for getting this thread discussing the development of a quite interesting civilization so much off topic.

I am sorry for this, I will not go on arguing about it.

 

[Ahwaric]

I second that. Guys, if you want to continue this discussion please start a separate topic for it.

I feel more and more guilty every time a new off-topic post shows up here. I am the one that started this discussion in the first place.
Opera, please forgive me, that was not my intention.

EDIT: Also, sorry that I the gnoll icon is not ready yet. Too much work. But I promise to make one.

 

[Imuratep]

@ opera: Could you perhaps edit your first post, so we can see what's the current way you want to have your civ and which are the points that you still consider unfinished? Perhaps then ideas will flow better.

 

[Opera]

@Everyone: Don't feel too bad for off-topic-ing the thread. It would happen eventually and it happened about a very interesting discussion. It's not like you were talking about what panties you wear. Hum, whatever, you're all forgiven

@Ahwaric: I'm not in a rush. Especially when it is for something from someone else. I'm not in position to hurry things. You don't owe me anything; however, I kind of think I owe you a modmod

@Imuratep & @Everyone: It's done now. I've edited my first post. It's a bit messy and full of useless explanations but I listed things so to make it quite easy to see which one needs talk. I may have forgotten things however. Like the leaders' traits... I'll add this.

I'm particularly in the dark when it comes to the Shur. I have to think about it and reread the thread because I've lost the ideas...

Anyway, again, thanks everyone for your concern

Edit: For now, I've just the civilization and the leaders added in XML. I'm waiting till I have much more Settled informations before beginning to really throw myself into coding and such. So it may take a bit of time. I hope you understand

 

[Valkrionn]

Settled
- The Ngomele are a deeply matriarchal society.
- They have a strong affinity to Nature Mana.
- They will have two non-religious heroes (Banung the Blind and (Raw idea) Nga Eye-Eater)
- They are nationalists.
- They have a good synergy with FoL.
- The Gnoll race has +15% heal after combat ([Raw idea] it's 5% more than Cannibalize).
- They are carnivorous.
Brainstormed ideas
- Banung the Blind: needs to be more of a buffer/healer than a warrior. This role would be filled by Nga Eye-Eater.
- World spell: popping a random number of Nature nodes is too much. Needs rethinking.
- They can gather food after combat (promotion) and then take it back to a city and add it in. However, it may have its limits if a great number a combat is fought; it would need to add many level of the same promotion.
- Soul Forge-like building: is it still necessary since they can create food from combat?
- The whole magic system of Ngomele needs thinking, being the arcane/divine lines or the unique spells. For now, the Shur exists, they are thought as arcane units and they have access to Shur Arcanes. Someone proposed that the Shur eventually replaces the Druid and thus replace the disciple line (if I'm not mistaken) rather than the Arcane. I would like both of those to be replaced, actually.
- Males: symbolized by the "Entertainer" unit, one who would have the possibility of increasing the culture/happiness of a city while he stays in it.
- How to implement the fact that they are carnivorous? First, we have the food from combat. Second, the heal from combat. But then we have to think about resources. They wouldn't use corn, rice and wheat the same way others do. Two ideas here: 1) adding a new improvement different from farm and only buildable by Gnoll worker that would give mostly commerce from non-animal food resources; 2) siimply adjusting farm yields. Someone mentioned adjusting pasture yields too.

Personally, I would say change the farm yields. Increase the commerce, decrease the food... Maybe even change the + to +? After all, every one of the grain resources can be converted to Alcohol....
For the pasture, I'd say leave the yields alone. The way you described the civ, it sounds like they should have a lot of small cities, which less food resources would reinforce.

Raw ideas
- Improving tiles by exclusive use of buildings; need an idea for what to do with resources.

I like the idea. Maybe have a cheap worker that can do nothing but improve resource tiles? The Scions do this for the resources.

- Unique FoL heroes. Maybe just one FoL hero altogether to balance their two other heroes?
- Making it so that Banung and Nga have a bonus effect when on the same tile.
- No other choice but to adopt FoL. I can see gnolls being AV, Kilmorph or, why not, Empy, but the Ngomele, not so much. Maybe their neighbors, though.

I don't know if I like that... Maybe rationalize it as the Council members being corrupted by the power that comes with a united civilization? Or leaders of another tribe staging a coup? Having them able to adopt just the one religion would make them unnecessarily weak, as they'd be handicapped if the Elves beat them to it. If you don't want them following another religion, I'd say make them 'Agnostic' in the same way the Scions are, with units and buildings representing the Green Sea.

- Increasing the uniqueness of the Gnoll race; make it so that it is not just a "Cannibalize+".

I generally think of Gnolls as living on open plains, so maybe a bonus reflecting that?

- I thought making all highest tier unit (of all lines) at least affinity nature +1. Maybe it would be overpowered. Could be balanced by an inability of using mithril weapons? Or even iron.

Blocking iron weapons would work I think. Generally wouldn't think of a gnoll as being able to work metal very well anyway, but maybe the Ngomele are different.

- I thought about a ritual invoking a "Nature spirit" building in each city, giving the "Osmose with the Sea" promotion that would grant +1 additional nature affinity. This ritual would require a high AC. It would be a kind of "seeking help from inside nature itself".
- How to implement the fact that they are nationalists? I thought of a building (the Council Tree maybe) increasing significantly internal trade routes yields. Or perhaps adding a civic doing something in those lines. Pushing them towards a "closed empire".
Unknown
- How are treated other unit lines? What about mounted units? Would gnolls mount horses?

I have trouble imagining a solely carnivorous civilization using horses as anything but food. I'd say put them on a predator, like the goblins.... I'd say a wolf, but since it's been done, maybe a savanna predator? Hyena, Lion, something like that.

I'd actually put in a Ngomele only improvement for Horses, removing the hammer bonuses and increasing food yields. If they're just food, they wouldn't be doing any work to represent the hammers after all.

 

[Seon]

Oh yeah, and when you make the cities gain food from combat, make sure that some races provide you with no meat. Last time I checked, there weren't much food on a skeleton

 

[civ_king]

what if you have a building to represent the grains being used as feed (for livestock)? 1 food per grain (every unit) scalable by map size?

 

[Imuratep]

It is possible to connect a certain chance to find a new resource to an improvement, isn't it (Mines --> Gold, gems, copper etc.)? Replace the farm by another improvement that acts like a slightly worse farm, but has a certain chance to create sheep, cows, horses or pigs. Additionally this would be a way to make nature mana better for them as IMHO it fits quite good to increase this chance for each nature mana ressource you own (analogue to earth mana). And as Ngomele would be the only ones that could build this improvement the increasement created by nature mana only affected them and thus they felt more unique.

 

[civ_king]

major issue: earth Mana affects ALL chance to find resources, however the mine is the only improvement to do that...

 

[Opera]

@civ_king: well, in fact it is the quarry. But it is easily doable with some XML tweaks. However, it for it being exclusive to Ngomele, it would need a new improvement. Maybe a "Small granary", +2, 25 turns before becoming a "Granary" which would have +1 from extra work, +2, 40 turns before becoming a "Big granary" with +1 and +3. It would need a food resource (wheat, rice, corn, olives?) and would give +1 rather than +1 because they would mostly use them to create beverages. But this raise the question of health... Since they would lack some I guess.

Sadly, I don't think anything is doable about the Earth mana. I can't specify any civilization-only settings on the Nature mana. And I can't see any way to bind Nature mana to Discovery chance of an improvement.

what if you have a building to represent the grains being used as feed (for livestock)? 1 food per grain (every unit) scalable by map size?

This could be great. The said building would require either horse, cow, sheep or pig AND either corn, rice or wheat.

A thing I just thought: researching Agriculture won't make any sense for them, would it? I'm not sure.

Oh yeah, and when you make the cities gain food from combat, make sure that some races provide you with no meat. Last time I checked, there weren't much food on a skeleton

Well, that's the advantage of gaining from combat: I can check if the unit is alive. However, the Soul forge mechanic won't check that.

I generally think of Gnolls as living on open plains, so maybe a bonus reflecting that?

I think it has been mentioned before. It's what I'm thinking too. What kind of bonus though? Movement? Attack, defense? Yields could be good. They may also have great bias against tundra... so even reducing tundra yields could be interesting (they wouldn't like Illians ).

I have trouble imagining a solely carnivorous civilization using horses as anything but food. I'd say put them on a predator, like the goblins.... I'd say a wolf, but since it's been done, maybe a savanna predator? Hyena, Lion, something like that.

I'd actually put in a Ngomele only improvement for Horses, removing the hammer bonuses and increasing food yields. If they're just food, they wouldn't be doing any work to represent the hammers after all.

That's a good idea. It would nice for hyena-like to ride lions However, wouldn't it be weird if they required horses to build lion-mounted units?

What about "ranch" for the improvement you proposed? Could work for any livestock. But remember that even though they wouldn't mount them, as we don't mount cows, horses could still be used for other things, I think.

For the pasture, I'd say leave the yields alone. The way you described the civ, it sounds like they should have a lot of small cities, which less food resources would reinforce.

Could you explain? I'm afraid I don't understand But as you mention it, I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes hammers:, and ) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.

I don't know if I like that... Maybe rationalize it as the Council members being corrupted by the power that comes with a united civilization? Or leaders of another tribe staging a coup? Having them able to adopt just the one religion would make them unnecessarily weak, as they'd be handicapped if the Elves beat them to it. If you don't want them following another religion, I'd say make them 'Agnostic' in the same way the Scions are, with units and buildings representing the Green Sea.

The reaction to agnosticism wasn't very good. But I think it may save a lot of time spent trying "unique"-fy things. I mean, I don't see them adopting any other belief than theirs. And, when you think hard (really) about it, FoL isn't that much close. FoL is close to nature, yes, but it's a tree-hugger religion. The Green Sea isn't about trees... Making them agnostic would free the divine line; I could make it entirely unique without the need of replacing existing units. They wouldn't have to research FoL before elves to be powerful.

 

[Valkrionn]

@civ_king: well, in fact it is the quarry. But it is easily doable with some XML tweaks. However, it for it being exclusive to Ngomele, it would need a new improvement. Maybe a "Small granary", +2, 25 turns before becoming a "Granary" which would have +1 from extra work, +2, 40 turns before becoming a "Big granary" with +1 and +3. It would need a food resource (wheat, rice, corn, olives?) and would give +1 rather than +1 because they would mostly use them to create beverages. But this raise the question of health... Since they would lack some I guess.

The lack of health just reinforces the 'Small cities' idea.

Sadly, I don't think anything is doable about the Earth mana. I can't specify any civilization-only settings on the Nature mana. And I can't see any way to bind Nature mana to Discovery chance of an improvement.

This could be great. The said building would require either horse, cow, sheep or pig AND either corn, rice or wheat.

A thing I just thought: researching Agriculture won't make any sense for them, would it? I'm not sure.

Not in and of itself, but it's required to get to animal handling so it would still be very important.


Well, that's the advantage of gaining from combat: I can check if the unit is alive. However, the Soul forge mechanic won't check that.

I think it has been mentioned before. It's what I'm thinking too. What kind of bonus though? Movement? Attack, defense? Yields could be good. They may also have great bias against tundra... so even reducing tundra yields could be interesting (they wouldn't like Illians ).

I'd say a movement bonus, personally.... And I could see reducing tundra yields. They'd have an advantage in plains, but both desert and tundra would give them nothing.

That's a good idea. It would nice for hyena-like to ride lions However, wouldn't it be weird if they required horses to build lion-mounted units?

I'd just remove the horse requirement, and increase the hammer cost.

What about "ranch" for the improvement you proposed? Could work for any livestock. But remember that even though they wouldn't mount them, as we don't mount cows, horses could still be used for other things, I think.

That would work, though I still have trouble thinking of a predator using food to work. At the very least, the horse would work it's heart out... If not, it's dead.

Could you explain? I'm afraid I don't understand But as you mention it, I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes hammers:, and ) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.

What I meant was that if you change the Farm yields, I wouldn't increase Pasture yields to compensate. This would mean they have less available food than other civs, which both makes sense seeing as they're only eating meat, and forces you into the 'many small cities' mind frame.

The reaction to agnosticism wasn't very good. But I think it may save a lot of time spent trying "unique"-fy things. I mean, I don't see them adopting any other belief than theirs. And, when you think hard (really) about it, FoL isn't that much close. FoL is close to nature, yes, but it's a tree-hugger religion. The Green Sea isn't about trees... Making them agnostic would free the divine line; I could make it entirely unique without the need of replacing existing units. They wouldn't have to research FoL before elves to be powerful.

Personally, I don't really think it 'agnostic' if you provide unique replacements. Agnosticism the way the Grigori have it isn't suitable for most civs, but the way the Scions have it should work.

 

[civ_king]

or you could add 30% if they have a lion cage in the city for lion mounted units

 

[Jabie]

(I'm adding a new post because I'm not sure anyone will notice my edits)

I really need some help here, with the promotions. It seems to work fine when only PROMOTION_GNOLL is active in Ngomele_CIV4PromotionInfos.xml. When I add PROMOTION_SHUR1 et PROMOTION_SHUR2, all is going nuts. It says GNOLL leads to ACHERONS_CHOSEN, that SHUR1 leads to AIR1, that AIR1 needs SHUR1... I don't understand how my additions can interfere with that...

Also, I don't understand why some promotion (say, Entropy I) have a <PrereqPromotionAnd> but no <PrereqPromotion>.

I wonder if my CIV4PromotionInfos.xml (Orbis) isn't broken...

I recently started playing about with the promotions file in base FfH for my own nefarious ends and had similar problems. I added a comment line after Woodsman II at the bottom of the file and then all the promotions I wanted to add and found the dependencies in the civilopedia were out.

Eventually, by a process of elimination I found the problem was the comment line I had added <!-- My mod starts here --> seemed to cause the XML parser difficulties. I took out the comment and everything worked fine. I don't know if you are having the same problem, but you might want to give it a look.

 

[Jabie]

Some more ideas: Someone recently published a link to the original Fall from Heaven mod in the modmods, scenarios and maps and it occurs to me that the Ngomele could dovetail with some of the loose ends for the civilizations in that mod.

The antecedents of gnolls could be a mongrels formed from the Tigran tribes and Goblins. Their mythology and plays could refer to Sable the Wise, Yaka the Wizard, Gotrul the Strong and Rupsta the Cunning. (Your flavour text for their "actor" unit could be about a troupe rehearsing for these roles for their next performance.)

Another cool idea would be to use the artwork for Treehome as the Ngomele Palace. The background here could be that the gnolls reclaimed the original Treehome following the end of the Age of Ice. This also provides a source of tension between the Ngomele and the Lljosfar / Svaltafar, which could be reflected in a -1 diplomatic penalty.