Ngomele civilization, a modmodmod for Orbis

[Ahwaric]

Regarding gnolls & food.

First of all, farm is not just for growing vegetables. I missed it at first, but every farm has a little of all, grains, other plants, pigs etc.
Well, that is the traditional way, modern commercial farms are specialized. But FfH, even with Orbis expansion into renaissance, is hardly a modern world.
So you can just say - they grow grains and then feed it to pigs. And then take care of the pigs... So, no changes necessary.
Also, I am against special improvement. All special things on the map for just one civ should be kept to minimum. I do not see why it should be added for Ngomelle. Plus, you can always add some extra yields for yurts. They already fit quite well the improvement you want to add (including discovering animal resources).

Sadly, I don't think anything is doable about the Earth mana. I can't specify any civilization-only settings on the Nature mana. And I can't see any way to bind Nature mana to Discovery chance of an improvement.

Nature mana is already increasing discovery chance. But there is no way to tie it to specific improvement or civ. So, you have bigger chance to get new pigs with earth mana and gold with nature...
Well, not something I want, but splitting it is not possible without total rewrite of this part of the code...

A special building can be a good idea, say +5% with every animal that can be eaten.
I see no problem with from horses and cows. We eat cows, don't we?

Well, that's the advantage of gaining from combat: I can check if the unit is alive. However, the Soul forge mechanic won't check that.

It will if you make it to. That is how mechanos reviving works - it is a modified soul forge code.
Recently revived units are not considered alive, so can't be revived again.

Bonus for plains is a good idea (food or some combat +%), but I would not penalize them for tundra. It is already worthless enough, and most food you get from tundra is from hunting, which gnolls are good at.

The reaction to agnosticism wasn't very good. But I think it may save a lot of time spent trying "unique"-fy things. I mean, I don't see them adopting any other belief than theirs.

As I have already said in Dao thread, I think agnosticism should be special. Either it has Grigori/Mechanos (and partially Scions)) form with no religion, or the civ must be extremly fanatical in their national believs (Scions, Illians). Ngomele is neither.
There are eight major ones that cross civ boundaries on greater scale but every civ has it's own special religion. That is what special pagan temples are for. You can add some extra things, too, but keep them balanced. Not every unique unit has to replace something. Steam tanks do not You just need to balance the civ on the macro scale.
That is why I talked of replacing druids and adding 2 "lesser druids" stages. In my mind both the green sea and gnolls fit druidism very well.

Also, every civ has it's own rites and forms of the major religions.
Look at our world, i.e. christianity is extremally split. Even so centralized branch as catholicism is a bit diffirent in different countries. Orthodox and protestant communities are even more diverse. And when any of it gets to africa, it gets transformed even more.
So, FoL is all about blood and hunt when Calabim (or Charadon) interpret it, survival of the fittest but also cooperation if you ask Thudr or Mahala, or the typical elven version when it is, well, elven version.

 

[Opera]

So, I guess it's my turn to post

Agnosticism: My bad here. It's true that it is a really bad word for what I mean. Basically I meant that they would be unable to choose any religion, to symbolize their faith being outside any of the great religions of FfH. To balance this loss, they would have some benefits. While I can totally imagine them this way, I think it would be sad not to get the relationship bonus from religion, especially for Mvadang who is a kind of Tokugawa in relations. You will seek every point to have her pleased with you.

Horses: I think this is settled. They don't use horses for mounting but for work and meat, as cows. Why do they choose lions instead of horses? Well, maybe they just didn't know they existed and preferred to stick to their lions. Maybe they're not well adapted to them either. However, there is a slight problem: how can I specify that Ngomele pasture on horses give more food and, say, less commerce?

Besides, any thoughts on lions being Ngomele's mounts? I think it's nice. Would be a bit tricky for the graphics though, won't it? But I'm not sure if it fits. I considered not giving them mounted units but that would just cripple them a lot.

@Valkrionn about less food: the fun thing is I began a new creature in Spore (you may have heard of this game where you create your creature which would grow into an intelligent species) and made it carnivorous. When in Tribe mode, where I have to gather food for the tribe, I had a real problem: not enough food from hunting. There was three or four pack of beasts to hunt but they soon disappeared (wonder why they didn't regrow since I left two specimens each). I had to find three species and tam then in order to pack them in a ranch thing where they produced eggs; food. If this creature had been omnivorous, it could have used the many fruits that were surrounding me and the fish (btw, I don't why carnivorous beasts can't eat fishes in Spore).

Autoquote:

I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes food:, and ) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.

Any reaction on this?

A special building can be a good idea, say +5% with every animal that can be eaten.

I can do that? My first guess is that it would be with python, since I don't remember that thing from XML. But I could (and hope) to be wrong

Terrain bonus: A plain movement bonus could be nice. I don't know if plains would benefit them for attack or defense though. But for gameplay reasons, why not? Food for sure, I think. But it would give them, say, 2 1 in plains and 2 in grassland. Hmm...

@Jabie: Thanks for the ideas. However, I don't really like to think that gnolls descend from Goblins and Tigrans. They just existed as Goblins and Tigrans (which I'm not sure exists in FfH lore now. But I would really love a catpeople civ, especially lions-oriented since they would be great at being rivals of gnolls, hyena people ). Should I came with who created them?

Edit: Oh, I made both leaders neutral. I think it fits as they are neither especially good nor especially evil. Yes they eat people after defeating them but that's not something that makes you evil. Well, it could but I don't think it is enough. They mostly want to survive, after all. They don't care (don't know?) about angels, gods and the like.

 

[Valkrionn]

So, I guess it's my turn to post

Agnosticism: My bad here. It's true that it is a really bad word for what I mean. Basically I meant that they would be unable to choose any religion, to symbolize their faith being outside any of the great religions of FfH. To balance this loss, they would have some benefits. While I can totally imagine them this way, I think it would be sad not to get the relationship bonus from religion, especially for Mvadang who is a kind of Tokugawa in relations. You will seek every point to have her pleased with you.

Horses: I think this is settled. They don't use horses for mounting but for work and meat, as cows. Why do they choose lions instead of horses? Well, maybe they just didn't know they existed and preferred to stick to their lions. Maybe they're not well adapted to them either. However, there is a slight problem: how can I specify that Ngomele pasture on horses give more food and, say, less commerce?

In the CivilizationInfos.xml, there should be yield modifiers available... I believe Ahwaric used them to remove one food from Elven farms. I suggested a carnivore mount mostly because I don't think horses would EVER be calm enough to handle carrying a Gnoll into battle... The stress of a predator on it's back, coupled with that from the fighting, would just be too much for the poor thing.

Besides, any thoughts on lions being Ngomele's mounts? I think it's nice. Would be a bit tricky for the graphics though, won't it? But I'm not sure if it fits. I considered not giving them mounted units but that would just cripple them a lot.

@Valkrionn about less food: the fun thing is I began a new creature in Spore (you may have heard of this game where you create your creature which would grow into an intelligent species) and made it carnivorous. When in Tribe mode, where I have to gather food for the tribe, I had a real problem: not enough food from hunting. There was three or four pack of beasts to hunt but they soon disappeared (wonder why they didn't regrow since I left two specimens each). I had to find three species and tam then in order to pack them in a ranch thing where they produced eggs; food. If this creature had been omnivorous, it could have used the many fruits that were surrounding me and the fish (btw, I don't why carnivorous beasts can't eat fishes in Spore).

I had the same issue with my Carnivorous race, but really, I don't think it's a problem. As the civilization advances, they are forced to move from hunting, to farming/raising animals.

I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes food:, and ) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.
Any reaction on this?

I like it, but it might be a bit too similar to the Lost Lands civic... Although that's not too big of an issue.

I can do that? My first guess is that it would be with python, since I don't remember that thing from XML. But I could (and hope) to be wrong

I'm sure you can. Would definitely think it would be Python, though.

Terrain bonus: A plain movement bonus could be nice. I don't know if plains would benefit them for attack or defense though. But for gameplay reasons, why not? Food for sure, I think. But it would give them, say, 2 1 in plains and 2 in grassland. Hmm...

@Jabie: Thanks for the ideas. However, I don't really like to think that gnolls descend from Goblins and Tigrans. They just existed as Goblins and Tigrans (which I'm not sure exists in FfH lore now. But I would really love a catpeople civ, especially lions-oriented since they would be great at being rivals of gnolls, hyena people ). Should I came with who created them?

Edit: Oh, I made both leaders neutral. I think it fits as they are neither especially good nor especially evil. Yes they eat people after defeating them but that's not something that makes you evil. Well, it could but I don't think it is enough. They mostly want to survive, after all. They don't care (don't know?) about angels, gods and the like.

 

[Ahwaric]

Agnosticism: My bad here. It's true that it is a really bad word for what I mean. Basically I meant that they would be unable to choose any religion, to symbolize their faith being outside any of the great religions of FfH.

I agree agnosticism is a bad term for most of the agnostics civs there are. No one can be agnostic in Erebus - the gods are a hard fact, not a matter of believs. Cassiel is neutral towardss religions, but he is and angel
Mechanos are antytheists and believe in human mind only. But they know that gods, unfortunatelly, do exist.
Illians and scions are fanatics united for the cause. Except the Hand religion there is nothing that makes illians different than doviello or any other human civ.
So, I think all religions have their own religion, but agnosticism should be enforced only for those few that can't really adopt another and keep their flavour.

However, there is a slight problem: how can I specify that Ngomele pasture on horses give more food and, say, less commerce?

Not really. You can adjust for the specific improvement type, but not for specific bonus.
I wonder how would a lion react to hiena trying to ride it Hmm, need to check what mounts do gnolls use - if at all. Boars?
Using lions has another downside. You need to find something that can pass as a lion and is alreadya mount. You can't just replace horse model with lion unless you create an animation. I had problems with griffon knights - finally editing Nyxkin allowed me to add them...

Regarding Spore, I was excited with it at first, but it was just too offensive for my biologist's mind. High expectations, crappy ending. And it is boring after a short time. Plusm my girlfriend was anoyed wioth me making firnds with other crewatures... The songs are hard for her ears
Anyway, I think you should be able to fish in tribe stage... But I played herbivores only...

I thought that it may be flavorful for them to have really small cities: city that would only work a 1-tile ring. Less maintenance, more yields from internal trade routes (, and ) and maybe more bonus for the tiles would balance this.

I do not see why they should be restricted in that. Especially if doviello and clan are not. I think their cities will be more or less the same. But I can imaginea gnoll metropoly, too. With a lot of slums...
Regarding trade, is it really possible to get anything but from trade routes? Do not think so.

I can do that? My first guess is that it would be with python, since I don't remember that thing from XML. But I could (and hope) to be wrong

Not for every instance, but for every separate bonus, yes. Just like dreptus/tailor/jeweler do - just xml.

Also, I agree they should be nautral. I do not think that being barbarian makes you evil. There is a difference between intentional cruelty and bringing armageddon to the world and simple survival - even if it means eating fallen foes and raiding your neightbours.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree agnosticism is a bad term for most of the agnostics civs there are. No one can be agnostic in Erebus - the gods are a hard fact, not a matter of believs. Cassiel is neutral towardss religions, but he is and angel
Mechanos are antytheists and believe in human mind only. But they know that gods, unfortunatelly, do exist.
Illians and scions are fanatics united for the cause. Except the Hand religion there is nothing that makes illians different than doviello or any other human civ.
So, I think all religions have their own religion, but agnosticism should be enforced only for those few that can't really adopt another and keep their flavour.


Not really. You can adjust for the specific improvement type, but not for specific bonus.

Ah, you are correct. I forgot that pastures are used by all the other animals as well.

I wonder how would a lion react to hiena trying to ride it Hmm, need to check what mounts do gnolls use - if at all. Boars?
Using lions has another downside. You need to find something that can pass as a lion and is alreadya mount. You can't just replace horse model with lion unless you create an animation. I had problems with griffon knights - finally editing Nyxkin allowed me to add them...

The Nyxkin animation would seem ready made, as it's already a big cat. Of course, I have no experience editing things like that, so I wouldn't know.

Regarding Spore, I was excited with it at first, but it was just too offensive for my biologist's mind. High expectations, crappy ending. And it is boring after a short time. Plusm my girlfriend was anoyed wioth me making firnds with other crewatures... The songs are hard for her ears
Anyway, I think you should be able to fish in tribe stage... But I played herbivores only...


I do not see why they should be restricted in that. Especially if doviello and clan are not. I think their cities will be more or less the same. But I can imaginea gnoll metropoly, too. With a lot of slums...
Regarding trade, is it really possible to get anything but from trade routes? Do not think so.


Not for every instance, but for every separate bonus, yes. Just like dreptus/tailor/jeweler do - just xml.

Also, I agree they should be nautral. I do not think that being barbarian makes you evil. There is a difference between intentional cruelty and bringing armageddon to the world and simple survival - even if it means eating fallen foes and raiding your neightbours.

 

[Valkrionn]

I do not see why they should be restricted in that. Especially if doviello and clan are not. I think their cities will be more or less the same. But I can imaginea gnoll metropoly, too. With a lot of slums...
Regarding trade, is it really possible to get anything but from trade routes? Do not think so.

Forgot to reply to this one.

At the moment, gaining food and hammers through trade are only possible via Civic. Or rather, they are in FF, and as it's only used for the Mazatl, I'd assume you imported it the schema for it. I had tried in the past to find a way for buildings to grant it, couldn't do it without editing the dll which is something I'm not up to. The tags are

<TradeYieldModifiers>
	<iYield>50</iYield>   :food:
	<iYield>50</iYield>   :hammers:
	<iYield>-50</iYield>  :commerce:
</TradeYieldModifiers>

 

[Jabie]

@Jabie: Thanks for the ideas.... ...But I would really love a catpeople civ, especially lions-oriented since they would be great at being rivals of gnolls, hyena people ). Should I came with who created them?

I'm not too sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is yes. Have you considered reintroducing Panthers? They existed during the Age of Ice and if the Ngomele are domesticating Lions as mounts, panthers seem like a natural step.

 

[civ_king]

panthers are awesome...

 

[arkham4269]

Regardless of whether a race is completely carnivorous, with the advent of slavery, I would think it would open up the ability to buy slaves that could be made to cultivate farms to then uses as fodder for animals.

So perhaps the Ngomele cannot build farms unless they have the slavery civic or else the are part of the Undercouncil and the slavery action is passed. I would think a "Ngomele Fodder Farm" would need to be created to reflect the need to have it only be able to be built under those circumstances.

Plus, in sci-fi/fantasy, often times pure carnivore races often subjugate other races to do things like this. I mean in a way the entire Calabim race is like this.

So if we don't want to totally fiddle around with farms, it would be easy to just say that these are tilled either by slaves or 'subject' races that are in a serf relation to the Ngomele and aren't ever allowed any sort of combat potential and thus are never seen in game.

On the other hand, if the farms are tilled by slaves or subject races, perhaps some mechanic could be created that might have the occasional slave revolt which would create a rebel on the farm square (destroying it). For every revolting slave unit still alive at the end of a turn might even increase the random chance for more revolts.

 

[Opera]

I don't think horses would EVER be calm enough to handle carrying a Gnoll into battle... The stress of a predator on it's back, coupled with that from the fighting, would just be too much for the poor thing.

Well, we humans mount horses even though we are a predator to them. Or maybe Ngomele would create races of an animal; one to eat, the other to ride. Gnolls on cows anyone? It would be so funny and awesome at once!

Using lions has another downside. You need to find something that can pass as a lion and is alreadya mount. You can't just replace horse model with lion unless you create an animation. I had problems with griffon knights - finally editing Nyxkin allowed me to add them...

As Valkrionn said, there is the Nyxkin animation. It has always been the graphics that turned modding off me. It's great to create these things and all but when it comes to graphics, I'm so lost. I feel like a Mazatl in the middle of a desert.

Not for every instance, but for every separate bonus, yes. Just like dreptus/tailor/jeweler do - just xml.

Okay! I'll check that

Also, I agree they should be nautral. I do not think that being barbarian makes you evil. There is a difference between intentional cruelty and bringing armageddon to the world and simple survival - even if it means eating fallen foes and raiding your neightbours.

So this is settled, great!

Regarding the internal trade routes: so it would need a whole new civic? Well, I can see that happening. However, forcing use of a civic to get the whole flavor of a civ may not be the good way. Too bad buildings can't do that!

Regarding Spore: I like it. It's fun to create things and to make the creature evolve through all phases, even though I'm not a big fan of the RTS ones and not a fan at all of the Civilization one. I would have so liked it to be more like Civ What I really like is to explore space and terraform planets. One problem was all the neverending pirates attacks and ecodisasters. So bored. So I got a mod, BetterSpore, and it's better now.

I'm not too sure I understand the question, but I think the answer is yes.

I was asking if I should think about which angel/god created the gnolls. IIRC, sapient races were all created, so... I guess gnolls too. However, I could totally get along without knowing it (and so could do the Ngomele).

Panthers: why not? I like everything which looks like a cat, so... I wonder how I'll decide which to take, lions or panthers? Another think about mounts is that gnolls are supposed to be pretty heavy... So I wonder if a lion or a panther would be able to support their weight...

Plus, in sci-fi/fantasy, often times pure carnivore races often subjugate other races to do things like this.

Well, this is because pure carnivorous races are mostly portrayed as evil in some way. As if eating fruits made humans harmless The thing I know for sure is that for a carnivorous species, either hunting or herding is necessary. Carnivorous animals need a lot of food, so this is why I think they would mostly be concerned with pastures.

Religion: I think I'll have to accept the oddities then of having, say, Bambur created in Ngomele territory. After all, this is already like that for many civs. I may tie them a little to FoL... But in fact, they could also follow Kilmorph, since this religion has a lot to do with nature too.

Hum, I don't feel we're moving forward. I should be more decisive, I think. If not, this could take a while... unless you don't mind if it does. I feel a bit overwhelmed. This is a much harder job than simply adding a leaderhead!

 

[civ_king]

As Valkrionn said, there is the Nyxkin animation. It has always been the graphics that turned modding off me. It's great to create these things and all but when it comes to graphics, I'm so lost. I feel like a Mazatl in the middle of a desert.

For me it is more like being in arawn's hell, because there is smply none greater for a learned man, OTOH (On The Other Hand) Mike Huckabee would love one, (sorry I got off topic

 

[Jabie]

I was asking if I should think about which angel/god created the gnolls. IIRC, sapient races were all created, so... I guess gnolls too. However, I could totally get along without knowing it (and so could do the Ngomele).

I may be misinterpretting your intentions, but the Ngomele seem to be aiming for "nature, red in tooth and claw". As such Sucellus, the God of Nature seems like a prime candidate for their creator.

Maybe the death of Sucellus in the Age of Ice was the trigger point for them to turn completely feral. If you want to use the Tigrans as their ancestors, Sucellus' death could also be the point at which they switched from cat-people (more civilized) to dog-people (scavengers).

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, I'd see them being like Centaurs, Lamias, Lizardmen, etc, in originating through the twisted experiments of Patrian Archmages.

 

[Opera]

Putting aside their origins for the moment, I had an idea concerning religion.

I was thinking of letting them use any state religion but not giving them the related heroes (or not all of them). Instead, they would get a free promotion, reserved to the gnoll race, which would be like a new conception of the Green Sea according to a certain religion. For example, if they were Empyrean followers, they would have the, say, "Righteous Sea" promotion, giving them some bonus.

They would have a unique unit for religion spreading (like the Jotnar civ of FF) which would only spread its own religion (I don't know if it's possible to force a unit to have a random religion of the city it's built in). So, even their heroes would be gnolls. They wouldn't have one hero for each main religion, though.

Comments?

 

[Valkrionn]

I like it... Would differentiate the religions, while still keeping their flavour.

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

I only have one question....

What's the ETA? XD

 

[Opera]

I only have one question....

What's the ETA? XD

I don't know

Right now, I have some XML already done, even if not totally (namely, it's the civilizationinfos, leaderinfos, parts of promotions). So, I miss buildings, units, spells. I miss the graphics too.

I thought about the buildings improving the tiles (those being impossible to improve as other civs do)... wouldn't that feature make a whole lot of building to build? I mean, their production would be busy trying to make the land usable so they wouldn't be able to produce units. Other civs would just have to produce a worker and they wouldn't have to worry. Seems to be a great disadvantage, doesn't it? But in the other hand, it would improve all the big fat cross tiles at once and be untouchable by pillage. Oh well, maybe it's worth it

 

[Valkrionn]

That would probably depend on the cost of the buildings. I'd recommend creating a few low level versions of the each improvement, and then have multiple buildings (rituals?) for each improvement type, slowly increasing the yields. Could have a series of farm buildings, 1 -> 2 -> 3, for example.

Personally, I'd say just do it via ritual, actually, and rather than add an improvement have it increase the base tile yield of a random workable tile. Make the ritual cheap, and make it able to stack, so if you do NOTHING but complete the ritual you could have very high yield tiles.. But you'd probably lose them in your first war. Maybe have it cap tile yields at a certain point, and choose a different tile if comes up on a capped tile? Say, 5. Would take 221 rituals to max out a 2 tier city, assuming all plains, no hills, and no rivers. Then allow a UU worker that does nothing but build roads and connect resources via unique improvements that do not increase tile yields?

To be honest, I don't know how to increase base tile yields via ritual, but I DO know that the Muris clan goblins event does it, or rather the inverse of it, so it should be possible.

 

[Opera]

What is the difference between a building and a ritual, actually? It has always bothered me. By the way, I've looked quickly in the files but I can't seem to find rituals...

But I could use both. I like the idea of having "upgrade" buildings. And I like the idea of a ritual upgrading some tiles in the city. Maybe both could be used. The buildings would be the base and then, later, would come the ritual.

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, I have no idea of the coding difference between the two, as I've had no reason to mod a ritual yet. I do have the idea in my head that rituals are able to do things buildings are not, but that's probably not true... Only thing I'm *sure* of is that rituals cannot be rushed which is either a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view... In this case, I'd say a good thing. So if a mixture is used, the rituals should be the expensive ones, that grant high yields. Keeps you from completing them in one turn.

Edit: Rituals are in Gameinfo/Civ4ProjectInfo.xml.

Edit 2: The Python for rituals is all in def onProjectBuilt, in CvEventManager.py. Looks to be easier to use than buildings.